• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

How Does He Do It?


Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
jhatpro
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Mar 2002
Posts: 9582
Location: Glen Ellyn, IL

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:00 am    Post subject: How Does He Do It? Reply with quote

I'm always transfixed when I hear Sergei Nakaraiakov. How does he play so effortlessly?

I do notice in this video his neck muscles are really working. Also there's a lot of movement around his embouchure as a result I suppose of his blazing multi-tonguing.

Anyone have deeper insights/observations?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLZWfxVHz9E
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"Life is good except for the side effects."

Horn of the Month
LA Olds Recording
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
mike ansberry
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Posts: 1408
Location: Clarksville, Tn

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel the same way when I watch and listen to him. I also get that feeling listening to Joey Pero play Bach Partitas on cornet. HOW DO THEY DO THAT? It can't be just that they practice a lot. I have been through times in my life when I was on the horn for 6 to 8 hours a day. There is either something freaky in their genetic make up or they know something we don't.
_________________
Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
jhatpro
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Mar 2002
Posts: 9582
Location: Glen Ellyn, IL

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here’s another guy that scares me.

https://youtu.be/elo0SPMo6qg
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"Life is good except for the side effects."

Horn of the Month
LA Olds Recording
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
area51recording
Veteran Member


Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 454

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both of those guys are fabulous! One thing I notice from both, but especially from Sergei, is neither one of them acts like they are taking in huge amounts of air to play the way they do (Sergei looks like he's barely breathing at all) but it seems like they both have a fine control over the air they DO take in. The fact that they are both apparently super efficient players in the embouchure dept. doesn't hurt either.......
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhatpro
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Mar 2002
Posts: 9582
Location: Glen Ellyn, IL

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good observation about air. I've begun to suspect that I try to take too much air in and end up over blowing.

Another thing I noticed about both is their apparent total relaxation. In the Sergei clip he's in a no pressure master class situation which is easier no doubt. But I've seen other clips of him playing with orchestras before large audiences and he seems completely at ease.

As for Antonsen, he's so loose he even fools around at the end with that one finger fingering bit - and earlier when he's scratching his eye and the conductor is giggling. No performance anxiety there. Just perfection!

Me, I've kacked enough notes in performance to fill a book by themselves.
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"Life is good except for the side effects."

Horn of the Month
LA Olds Recording
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Jaw04
Veteran Member


Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 343
Location: Oakland, CA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These technical wizards are just super focused on everything they play, coordinating everything to the highest level, not accepting anything less than perfect, and developing the efficiency that goes along with that precision.

It can be beneficial and fascinating to look at their embouchures and breathing, I do it all the time, but since everyone is so different physically I would focus more on the sound of their articulations, the sound of their phrasing, their tone, etc if you want to emulate their playing. EDIT: The breathing thing is a good observation. I've watched videos of myself and noticed my breathing was more effort physically, too much of a wind up motion, than I see from pros of this level. It has been beneficial to make that comparison and try to breathe more neutrally.

I am very thankful for these kind of artists as a benchmark for what is possible. I like to tell myself, if they can do it, it is possible for everyone. Don't accept your current limitations and keep striving.
_________________
JW - musician and educator
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peanuts56
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 534

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jhatpro wrote:
Here’s another guy that scares me.

https://youtu.be/elo0SPMo6qg

I love how he casually rubs his eye while effortlessly holding out the high c.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peanuts56
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 534

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jhatpro wrote:
Here’s another guy that scares me.

https://youtu.be/elo0SPMo6qg

I love how he casually rubs his eye while effortlessly holding out the high c.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
krell1960
Regular Member


Joined: 20 Jan 2020
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

area51recording wrote:
Both of those guys are fabulous! One thing I notice from both, but especially from Sergei, is neither one of them acts like they are taking in huge amounts of air to play the way they do (Sergei looks like he's barely breathing at all) but it seems like they both have a fine control over the air they DO take in. The fact that they are both apparently super efficient players in the embouchure dept. doesn't hurt either.......


thats because they are not taking in huge amounts of air, you don't need huge amounts of air to play these notes. i think this is what 99 % of trumpet players don't get. It always goes back to the "use more air" thing we hear constantly. It just isn't needed.

that was some cool playing !!

tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 1843

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: How Does He Do It? Reply with quote

jhatpro wrote:
I'm always transfixed when I hear Sergei Nakaraiakov. How does he play so effortlessly?

I do notice in this video his neck muscles are really working. Also there's a lot of movement around his embouchure as a result I suppose of his blazing multi-tonguing.

Anyone have deeper insights/observations?

I think he's putting in a tremendous amount of effort to achieve the resulting smooth sound.

Along with a huge amount of practice, a lot of attention paid to sound, innate talent and cooperative physical tools he also uses a setup that's oriented toward agility on a certain kind of literature and up to a certain range, rather than being concerned at all with screaming high notes. I feel pretty confident that you're never going to see him playing the lead chair with a stage band nor will you ever hear him play the Michael Haydn concerto.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel


Last edited by Robert P on Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaw04
Veteran Member


Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 343
Location: Oakland, CA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: How Does He Do It? Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
jhatpro wrote:
I'm always transfixed when I hear Sergei Nakaraiakov. How does he play so effortlessly?

I do notice in this video his neck muscles are really working. Also there's a lot of movement around his embouchure as a result I suppose of his blazing multi-tonguing.

Anyone have deeper insights/observations?

I think he's putting in a tremendous amount of effort, it's the resulting sound that's smooth.

Along with a huge amount of practice, a lot of attention paid to sound, innate talent and cooperative physical tools he also uses a setup that's oriented toward agility on a certain kind of literature and up to a certain range, rather than being concerned at all with screaming high notes. I feel pretty confident that you're never going to see him playing the lead chair with a stage band nor will you ever hear him play the Michael Haydn concerto.


This is an interesting Take. I don't want to be confrontational but, this statement is making me feel a kind of way. Basically, why would you say that? Why would you hear something amazing and your reaction is, "yeah but he's not screaming high notes"?
What do you mean by "using a setup that's oriented toward agility"? This is world-class amazing sounds coming out of this man's trumpet and you are acting like he is a one trick pony because you haven't heard him play in a Maynard Ferguson cover band?
What do you mean by "up to a certain range"? How high do you want him to play? He has played the hell out of Tomasi, Zigeunerweisen, up to high F sounding better than 99.9 percent of people on the planet. His job is to travel and perform in concert halls around the world, and if he misses a note everybody knows it. Missing notes is not acceptable in his line of work. And he performs some incredibly difficult repertoire. It just feels like you are slighting him for not playing double Cs flawlessly every night, or something. Can you elaborate?

Apologies in advance if I'm being too much.
_________________
JW - musician and educator
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 1843

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: How Does He Do It? Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
Robert P wrote:
jhatpro wrote:
I'm always transfixed when I hear Sergei Nakaraiakov. How does he play so effortlessly?

I do notice in this video his neck muscles are really working. Also there's a lot of movement around his embouchure as a result I suppose of his blazing multi-tonguing.

Anyone have deeper insights/observations?

I think he's putting in a tremendous amount of effort, it's the resulting sound that's smooth.

Along with a huge amount of practice, a lot of attention paid to sound, innate talent and cooperative physical tools he also uses a setup that's oriented toward agility on a certain kind of literature and up to a certain range, rather than being concerned at all with screaming high notes. I feel pretty confident that you're never going to see him playing the lead chair with a stage band nor will you ever hear him play the Michael Haydn concerto.


This is an interesting Take. I don't want to be confrontational but, this statement is making me feel a kind of way. Basically, why would you say that?

I can't help how you choose to react to what I've said.

Quote:
Why would you hear something amazing and your reaction is, "yeah but he's not screaming high notes"?

That isn't what I said.

Quote:
What do you mean by "using a setup that's oriented toward agility"?


I'm basing what I say on what I've heard him play. He has superb agility and sound. The original question was "how does he do it?" My impression is that he's calibrated his playing to fit a certain niche, that niche doesn't include screaming high notes. I imagine he's played The Carnival Of Venice and Hora Staccato endless times. I can't find a single example of him playing the Michael Haydn or Brandenburg 2. I see he even put out a Baroque album, it's not on there.

Have you ever heard him play the Michael Haydn? Do you think he could, right now, play the lead book with a strong college or pro stage band?

If the answer to both questions is "No", then where do you find the inaccuracy in what I said?
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaw04
Veteran Member


Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 343
Location: Oakland, CA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: How Does He Do It? Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Jaw04 wrote:
Robert P wrote:
jhatpro wrote:
I'm always transfixed when I hear Sergei Nakaraiakov. How does he play so effortlessly?

I do notice in this video his neck muscles are really working. Also there's a lot of movement around his embouchure as a result I suppose of his blazing multi-tonguing.

Anyone have deeper insights/observations?

I think he's putting in a tremendous amount of effort, it's the resulting sound that's smooth.

Along with a huge amount of practice, a lot of attention paid to sound, innate talent and cooperative physical tools he also uses a setup that's oriented toward agility on a certain kind of literature and up to a certain range, rather than being concerned at all with screaming high notes. I feel pretty confident that you're never going to see him playing the lead chair with a stage band nor will you ever hear him play the Michael Haydn concerto.


This is an interesting Take. I don't want to be confrontational but, this statement is making me feel a kind of way. Basically, why would you say that?

I can't help how you choose to react to what I've said.

Quote:
Why would you hear something amazing and your reaction is, "yeah but he's not screaming high notes"?

That isn't what I said.

Quote:
What do you mean by "using a setup that's oriented toward agility"?


I'm basing what I say on what I've heard him play. He has superb agility and sound. The original question was "how does he do it?" My impression is that he's calibrated his playing to fit a certain niche, that niche doesn't include screaming high notes.

Have you ever heard him play the Michael Haydn? Do you think he could, right now, play the lead book with a strong college or pro stage band?

If the answer to both questions is "No", then where do you find the inaccuracy in what I said?

I think he could probably play the Michael Haydn, and could play lead in a big band. But whether he could or not does not matter. I mean, I can hack my way through anything but what is the point? Music is not a chops competition.
When I listen to Miles Davis I don't think if he could play in the New York Phil, when I listen to Bill Chase I don't wonder if he could play the Haydn concerto, when I listen to Maurice Andre I don't wonder if he could play the changes on Giant Steps. If you wonder those thing that's fine. But it's a strange way of judging an artist. In my opinion it is bad taste to talk about how an artist has calibrated their playing based on their genre of music. Sergei has recorded plenty of high Fs and plays them every concert so, it's not like he is trapped in a box with repertoire. So why bring up screaming high notes?
You are entitled to share your viewpoint and I mean no disrespect. I hold these artists in very high regard and just don't see why anybody would bother to look at what they haven't done or "can't" do. Sergei has recorded the majority of everything big in the classical repertoire written for trumpet and you're pointing out one piece he hasn't recorded.
_________________
JW - musician and educator
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Eliot
Veteran Member


Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Posts: 112
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That first link provided some inspirational playing that lead to three other video clips.

Absolutely brilliant playing. Guess that represents practising for pretty much a lifetime for Sergi.

Thank you for sharing the link.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GeorgeB
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Apr 2016
Posts: 630
Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing I notice about Sergei is how his embouchure has the look of a slight frown. There is another player, whose name escapes me at the moment, who also uses a frown and appears to play effortlessly. Maybe that has something to do with it.
_________________
GeorgeB
Manchester Brass Custom ( ACB ) RL-GB pro B flat trumpet
1942 Buescher 400 225 (ML Bore ) Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B flat trumpet
1959 Selmer Paris 24B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
abontrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1045

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krell1960 wrote:
area51recording wrote:
Both of those guys are fabulous! One thing I notice from both, but especially from Sergei, is neither one of them acts like they are taking in huge amounts of air to play the way they do (Sergei looks like he's barely breathing at all) but it seems like they both have a fine control over the air they DO take in. The fact that they are both apparently super efficient players in the embouchure dept. doesn't hurt either.......


thats because they are not taking in huge amounts of air, you don't need huge amounts of air to play these notes. i think this is what 99 % of trumpet players don't get. It always goes back to the "use more air" thing we hear constantly. It just isn't needed.

that was some cool playing !!

tom


Chiming in to respond to OP but to also hopefully dispel the idea about air that is exemplified by this post.

AIR
1. Yes, it takes relatively little amounts of air to play the trumpet (I'm sure kalijah will be responding to this). But brass players tend to sound the best when they are at "comfortably full" to about 66% of that capacity. From 66% - 33% they can sound good with training and a bit of effort. Below 33% and generally it takes a lot of effort to sound good.

2. You can release a small amount of air just as easily (i would argue that it's easier) at "comfortably full" capacity. Just try it, take a nice full breath, let a small stream of constant air out. Do the same thing on a relatively empty breath. It is obvious, to me at least, that the empty breath takes greater muscular effort.

We don't need to take a massive breath that is uncomfortable, but we need to be taking a comfortably full breath pretty much any time we are taking a breath.

3. The argument: "why would i need to take a full breath to play one soft staccato eight note?" I hate this argument. Lets take the excerpt from parsifal (it is a relatively long phrase done mostly at a soft dynamic where the second phrase begins "p" the middle range and goes to a relatively loud dynamic on the high concert c). In an effort to play the entire phrase comfortably, we would need to take a solidly full breath to make it through the phrase. Which means that we are playing the initial "p" note on a full breath. By the original argument/question at the beginning of this paragraph, we shouldn't need to take a full breath for this first note, but the length of the phrase dictates that we do. Logically, this means we are capable of playing soft notes of short duration with a full breath because we have just done so at the beginning of this excerpt.

3a. What do we gain by taking a full breath every time? Consistency. If we reduce the amount of variables (and I argue the inhale is one of the most important) then we increase our batting average.

FOR THE OP: How do effortless players play effortlessly?
1. The answer, IMHO, is an obvious one and one that people hate to hear. They play effortlessly because they play effortlessly. In general they do so from a very early moment in their career.

Intrinsically I think we all know when we are playing the trumpet with too much effort and we also know when we are playing with ease and "effortlessness." But I think too many of us play with "effort" and convince ourselves that at some point in the intangible future we will "get better" gradually over some period of time and things will become more effortless. For some reason we think we have to struggle to find ease.

This is an easy thing to believe because effort is tangible and it feels like we are improving because we can feel it. We have to rid ourselves of this notion if we are to become "effortless/natural" players. (Obviously to an extent)

2. Alternative approach to traditional improvement: Instead of making something effortful become effortless over time, instead consider just playing (relatively) effortlessly and learning how to play what you want to play with this new approach. You might miss a ton more notes at the beginning and what comes out the bell is a bit different than you're used to...but overtime what you envision and the way you want to sound and play will get programmed into this new "effortless" player.

Instead of making a effortful player effortless over time, we should just start playing the in the manner we want to (effortless) and force the other stuff to adapt to the new approach to playing.

Tom Hooten, I feel, is the perfect embodiment of this concept. He talks about it himself in masterclasses and his social media posts. He is constantly looking for new ease and efficiency and he isn't afraid to shed his past self for a radically different new self. We need to stay curious and be willing to change otherwise, sadly, most of us will never achieve our dreams over time. Kick-start the process.

Obviously, the way you approach the instrument shouldn't compromise your artistic vision. Also, there's obviously more that goes into it to become sergei or hakan but that's a good starting guide for the general player out there and can help improve anybody at any level or at least provide food for thought.

Enjoy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vin DiBona
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1210
Location: OHare area

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He is more talented than most, like all the other great players. Don't think so? Why can't all major league pitchers throw 100 mph? After all, they work very hard at what they do. It is a particular gift they have been given.
A friend who is a world famous lead trumpet player sat down with Sergei after some convention they were at and they had a very nice conversation.
Sergei told him that he simply cannot play very high nor can he improvise well. Because of these "flaws" he stays away from upper register stuff and any improvisational playing.
Great players are efficient in the use of air. Where they are truly working is not readily seen.
R. Tomasek
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2324

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's never been a trumpet player ever, at any time, who was the best at everything in terms of playing trumpet. Nor has there been a painter or dancer or singer or any other artist who was ever, at any time, the best at everything in their general category of art.

Sergei is so good at what he does, so beyond what would otherwise seem humanly possible within the context of what he does, that he doesn't need to be good at anything else to be one of the all time greats on trumpet.

Van Gogh couldn't paint the same way Rembrandt painted but his paintings still sell for a gazillion pengos. So, I guess in the world of painting it doesn't matter that Van Gogh couldn't do what Rembrandt did.

It doesn't matter that Sergei can't play like Maynard or Clifford. He has his plate full playing like himself and, certainly, neither Maynard nor Clifford could play like Sergei.

So, how does Sergei do what he does at the level he does it? Beats me. It seems impossible but there he is doing it. It's wonderful watching him without trying to analyze it.

In fact, in terms of art appreciation, I think all art is more enjoyable by looking for the beauty within it rather than by trying to compare it to extrinsic and arbitrary standards, by trying to play the "Yeah, but where's the rest of it?" game. That game misses the forest for the trees.
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
adagiotrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 708

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pettiness on this forum sometimes amazes me. We read comments like "using a setup oriented towards agility". Does this come from first hand knowledge or idle speculation? "He can play Hayden, but can he play lead in a big band," (I paraphrase). Why the qualifiers?

If we were to go hear the San Francisco Symphony with Mark Inouye playing principal, many on this forum would go away thinking that he sounds great but I bet he can't swing or play jazz. If we were to go to a jazz club and hear him play, not knowing of his symphonic background, many on this forum would leave thinking he sounds great but he obviously can't play classical. Well guess what, he excels at both admirably.

How many, after hearing Wynton in his earlier years, thought that he could also be considered the world class trumpet soloist he turned out to be? Of coarse, being somewhat facetious, some would say after his performances as a major soloist, "yeah, but can he play principal in an orchestra?"

Sure, most of us excel in one or more particular areas. But why should anyone's playing abilities be qualified by what is perceived to be areas in which they may not excel?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2324

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
But why should anyone's playing abilities be qualified by what is perceived to be areas in which they may not excel?


People do this because (whether they will admit it or not) they feel threatened by another player's excellence, they feel somehow diminished so they feel a need to say something to diminish the other player. That's the whole psychology behind "Where's the rest of it?"

So, it's "Yeah, he can do that but can he do what I can do or what my hero can do or what some other player can do and, if not, then what's the big deal?"

It's a verbal/written trumpeter's handshake ("Hi, I'm better than you!").
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group