• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

The ‘right’ mouthpiece, plus double-buzz



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
MahlerMAD
New Member


Joined: 20 Dec 2020
Posts: 3
Location: Stonehaven, northeast Scotland

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:18 am    Post subject: The ‘right’ mouthpiece, plus double-buzz Reply with quote

Greetings!

This is my first post here on Trumpet Herald!

I’m just over a month off 50 years old. For the best part of 30 years I struggled on baritone horn, the British brass band instrument .... Over a couple of years though ago I made the decision to change instrument. I had really struggled with my embouchure on baritone, very off-centre. This resulted in technical struggles on the low brass instrument. I was frequently advised embouchure change, and I tried several times but couldn’t do it. So that made me decide to change instrument.

My rationale was that a smaller mouthpiece should help me centre my embouchure better .... After almost 2 1/2 years I’m still adjusting to trumpet. I’ve been ‘experimenting’ with mouthpieces, mostly symphonic, larger mouthpieces. My range is comfortable up to G above the stave, but I’m having a block to consistently hit higher notes, and my lower pitches, mostly D and C below the stave I’m often plagued with a double buzz.

I’d greatly appreciate any advice please to help with improved sound, range, and to rid me of the double buzz.

Great regards from Scotland,
Donald 🎺
_________________
Bach Strad 180, over 30 mouthpieces, and counting .....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RETrumpet
Regular Member


Joined: 26 Jan 2021
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt it's a mouthpiece issue, especially after you've experimented with many. And I'd guess (hard to say with out seeing your setup) that the range and double buzz are linked.

I recently shared this somewhere else on this forum, but I'd bet that about 10 minutes a day with this drill will definitely clear up the double buzz (only one lip vibrates in this drill) and that will probably influence your upper register as well.

I recently used this to unlock my upper register with this after being stuck in the same place for 20 years...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1XRta36WCk
_________________
Bb: Bach-in-name-only, 70s(?) Committee, YTR-8335S(2), Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229- MK slide/pipe
D/Eb: YTR-761
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Modified Blessing Scholastic
Monette Mouthpieces
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1495
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For some 'general information' about embouchure, you can read my ideas here - http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm

I suggest you compare what you are currently doing with the items that I mention. Doing the comparison should help you with the words to describe your technique, and perhaps to ask more detailed questions here on TH.
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2020_Dec_17_Snow_2_small.jpg
Big Snow 1 week before Christmas
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kalijah
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 2855
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basically JH is just free -buzzing.

As for his ACE, or Aperture controlled embouchure. That is a sure way to have weak and puny high pitches, which he has.

Players with full sounds use rim-to-rim lip vibration, and simply and effectively control the tension/firmness of BOTH lips to control pitch.

Oh, and air speed does not determine pitch. It is a variable that you will NEVER know, nor should you EVER be concerned with. (Its just something trumpet players say.)

Quote:
My range is comfortable up to G above the stave, but I’m having a block to consistently hit higher notes, and my lower pitches, mostly D and C below the stave I’m often plagued with a double buzz.


Most struggling players use excessive effort to play. Especially in the low register and softly. If this is the case the strength is exhausted quickly and range suffers.

Send me a video of your playing.
_________________
Darryl Jones

Callicchio 1s2
Yamaha YTR734
Benge 3x+ (Burbank)
Yamaha YHF631 Flugelhorn
MP: stock Marcinkiewicz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
RETrumpet
Regular Member


Joined: 26 Jan 2021
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Basically JH is just free -buzzing.

As for his ACE, or Aperture controlled embouchure. That is a sure way to have weak and puny high pitches, which he has.

Players with full sounds use rim-to-rim lip vibration, and simply and effectively control the tension/firmness of BOTH lips to control pitch.

Oh, and air speed does not determine pitch. It is a variable that you will NEVER know, nor should you EVER be concerned with. (Its just something trumpet players say.)

Quote:
My range is comfortable up to G above the stave, but I’m having a block to consistently hit higher notes, and my lower pitches, mostly D and C below the stave I’m often plagued with a double buzz.


Most struggling players use excessive effort to play. Especially in the low register and softly. If this is the case the strength is exhausted quickly and range suffers.

Send me a video of your playing.


This just proves that you haven't actually listened to what JH has to say. Once you figure out your personal pivot from bottom to top you can then find the mouthpiece that fits the natural width of your embouchure ()obviously he is selling his modular system, but whatever...).

And it's not free buzzing because you are actively pinning one lip with the mouthpiece rim and preventing it from vibrating.

I have plenty of volume behind my high range still -- it hasn't gotten puny of weak since working on ACE, and more importantly the mid range pivot he discusses. Just more reliable, more efficient, and better endurance.

Why are good trumpet players so often so myopic?
_________________
Bb: Bach-in-name-only, 70s(?) Committee, YTR-8335S(2), Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229- MK slide/pipe
D/Eb: YTR-761
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Modified Blessing Scholastic
Monette Mouthpieces
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
kalijah
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 2855
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I do the swing-up pivot as he demonstrates there is simply air or a much lower buzz pitch.

If you are free-buzzing the same pitch you are using FAR more effort to play than is required. A bit of a callisthenic exercise in that case though.

But yes, it is free buzzing, into non-resonant atmospheric air, with a little rim force on the top lip.
_________________
Darryl Jones

Callicchio 1s2
Yamaha YTR734
Benge 3x+ (Burbank)
Yamaha YHF631 Flugelhorn
MP: stock Marcinkiewicz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kalijah
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 2855
Location: Alabama

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I’d greatly appreciate any advice please to help with improved sound, range, and to rid me of the double buzz.


I suggest an "average" mouthpiece for you. Not an extreme size large or small.

Then fix your low tones first. Contact me for help.
_________________
Darryl Jones

Callicchio 1s2
Yamaha YTR734
Benge 3x+ (Burbank)
Yamaha YHF631 Flugelhorn
MP: stock Marcinkiewicz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Richard III
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2102
Location: Anacortes, WA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Odd transition from large mouthpiece instrument to small. I've found the larger mouthpiece of euphonium to be much more friendly than the one on trumpet. Apparently I'm not alone. I've read it is common.
_________________
Richard

For Sale: Cornets: King Cleveland Superior.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Billy B
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 5607
Location: Des Moines

PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use a middle of the road mouthpiece such as a Bach 3C or 7C.

Then join us here.

I'll be conducting a ZOOM session this Friday 2/26 7:00am CST.
This would be a great introduction to the William Adam routine as taught to me in 1982 by Mr. Adam.
bill bergren is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
Topic: bill bergren's Personal Meeting Room
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/9854582581
Meeting ID: 985 458 2581
_________________
Bill Bergren
If it works for then do it!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
MahlerMAD
New Member


Joined: 20 Dec 2020
Posts: 3
Location: Stonehaven, northeast Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys, many thanks for your replies and thoughts, much appreciated.

Yes, I’ve had a few good-natured remarks about changing from a baritone to a trumpet ... I totally appreciate that it’s normally the other way around .... But as far as I’m aware there’s no law of nature that dictates against going from a large mouthpiece to a small one. It’s a slow process to fully adjust definitely, but I don’t feel that my difficulties are insurmountable, only time will tell I suppose.

Compared to baritone I’m sure my trumpet embouchure is better ‘balanced’, certainly more centred. The help that I feel I need is really just some fine-tuning, whether it’s with mouthpiece selection or embouchure set-up and riddling me of the dreaded double-buzz ....

Based on local advice I’ve been concentrating more on symphonic-type mouthpieces, 17+mm cup diameters, with a few slightly smaller ones thrown in to help with playing in higher register .... Not that I have much need yet to play above the stave with my current practice, and I can play up to high C anyway even on my Bach 1 1/2C, my Denis Wick MM2C, and Phil Parker Symphony mouthpieces, amongst others .... It’s more in the lower register, D and C below the stave where the double buzz, intermittently bothers me .... That’s when I question my choice of mouthpiece. I have smaller cup diameters, that do improve the double buzz problem, but are not so comfy to blow, hence why I’m here conversing with you good people!

I’ve just ordered a Denis Wick 4B off eBay, cup diameter 16.5mm .... A good choice, or just another piece of metal in my collection? Time will tell ....

Incidentally, back in my late 20s (I’ll be 50 next month), I did play trumpet for a couple of years. I blew a cheep 2nd hand Chinese trumpet I found in a shop in York, England, where I studied at the time. I got lessons from a Scottish trumpet student at the University in York, where I was a post-grad student, he had me play a Bach 1 1/4C .... So I guess that is why I’m so concentrated still on larger mouthpieces ....? I played trumpet in the university student orchestra, but went back to baritone when I left uni and joined a local brass band.

Thanks again,
Donald.
_________________
Bach Strad 180, over 30 mouthpieces, and counting .....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MahlerMAD
New Member


Joined: 20 Dec 2020
Posts: 3
Location: Stonehaven, northeast Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys, many thanks for your replies and thoughts, much appreciated.

Yes, I’ve had a few good-natured remarks about changing from a baritone to a trumpet ... I totally appreciate that it’s normally the other way around .... But as far as I’m aware there’s no law of nature that dictates against going from a large mouthpiece to a small one. It’s a slow process to fully adjust definitely, but I don’t feel that my difficulties are insurmountable, only time will tell I suppose.

Compared to baritone I’m sure my trumpet embouchure is better ‘balanced’, certainly more centred. The help that I feel I need is really just some fine-tuning, whether it’s with mouthpiece selection or embouchure set-up and riddling me of the dreaded double-buzz ....

Based on local advice I’ve been concentrating more on symphonic-type mouthpieces, 17+mm cup diameters, with a few slightly smaller ones thrown in to help with playing in higher register .... Not that I have much need yet to play above the stave with my current practice, and I can play up to high C anyway even on my Bach 1 1/2C, my Denis Wick MM2C, and Phil Parker Symphony mouthpieces, amongst others .... It’s more in the lower register, D and C below the stave where the double buzz, intermittently bothers me .... That’s when I question my choice of mouthpiece. I have smaller cup diameters, that do improve the double buzz problem, but are not so comfy to blow, hence why I’m here conversing with you good people!

I’ve just ordered a Denis Wick 4B off eBay, cup diameter 16.5mm .... A good choice, or just another piece of metal in my collection? Time will tell ....

Incidentally, back in my late 20s (I’ll be 50 next month), I did play trumpet for a couple of years. I blew a cheep 2nd hand Chinese trumpet I found in a shop in York, England, where I studied at the time. I got lessons from a Scottish trumpet student at the University in York, where I was a post-grad student, he had me play a Bach 1 1/4C .... So I guess that is why I’m so concentrated still on larger mouthpieces ....? I played trumpet in the university student orchestra, but went back to baritone when I left uni and joined a local brass band.

Thanks again,
Donald.
_________________
Bach Strad 180, over 30 mouthpieces, and counting .....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy Del
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2456
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you’ll get here are WAGs (wild a$$ed guesses) as to what is going on.

For me, if you have a high C on trumpet and double buzz in the lower register, you are way too tight. Relaxing, doing some pedal exercises, and slurs down into the lower register to create a balance there may help.

A good teacher may help even more!

Cheers

Andy
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bflatman
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 594

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the risk of ridicule and this is just my opinion

A double buzz is an imbalance between the upper and lower lips so that each lip vibrates at a different frequency.

This is common and can strike when fatigued or when the embouchure is not mature or both.

Altering the angle of the horn can end the double buzz but the real cure is working on the embouchure the chops and endurance

Reeded instruments tend not to experience double buzz that is because the reed is cut and shaped in for example bassoon or oboe to be balanced.

I would not dream of contradicting the excellent advice of Andy. I will add this however

Tightening the lips when the chops are not fully developed can result in the stronger lip being tighter, and the two lips can then vibrate at different rates.

Softening the lips allows them to regain balance and the double buzz goes away.

The lips are called the double reed for a reason and they must function as well balanced reeds to not double buzz.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wilktone
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 559
Location: Asheville, NC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have to watch you play to give you specific advice, but I'm concerned about your interest to center the mouthpiece placement. Off center placement is fine if that's where it works best. The placement also shouldn't be exactly 50/50 either. One lip or another should predominate. When the lips are too close to 50/50 they can fight for predominance inside the mouthpiece and cause a double buzz.


Link


That's not the only cause of a double buzz, but it comes to mind since you mentioned centering the mouthpiece.

If you're able to post video of your chops to look at, it might help troubleshoot exactly what's going on. But a good place to start, I think, would be to go ahead an move your mouthpiece placement back to where it was before.

Dave
_________________
www.wilktone.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group