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gwood66
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 Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| jvf1095 wrote: | | And to your point, that's what I'm trying to accomplish, that being range, articulation, flexibility, etc, aside from just learning a song. |
It has been my experience that if you want to improve range, articulation, flexibility, etc. then you need to practice some exercises focused on those things. Music and Etudes can also be a part of the overall plan for improvement.
I also think the biggest bang for the buck is the focusing on improving efficiency. For me, playing has become much more enjoyable as my efficiency has improved. I don't really think that can be accomplished by playing music alone. As long as you have a "routine" that you loosely follow, that covers the basic item then that should be enough. I don't do every part of my routine every day but I try to hit all areas every two or three days. Here is a snapshot of my routine:
1. Warm up with either Gordon Systematic Approach exercise 2 part 1 or Stamp warmup #3 starting on C in the staff and work down to pedal C. (I do one of these every time I play without fail)
2. Lip Slur routine from Irons or Dave Belknap Schlossberg routine. (I try do at least a few lip slurs every day)
3. Clarke 1, 2 or 5 / or Chromatic Exercise out of "5 Steps to Mastering Lead Trumpet" by Garrett Schmidt
4. Lip Bends from Hickman 15 Advanced Embouchure Studies or Hickman Power, Endurance and Upper Register.
5. Tonguing Exercise from "5 Steps to Mastering Lead Trumpet" or Gordon Tongue Level Exercises
6. Sight Read an Etude from Getchell or Herring Books. (I do at least one every day that I play.)
7. Work on Lead Parts from the big band music (Basie/Goodwin/Rich) I have played the last three years. Just picked up the Terry Gibbs Dream Band lead transcriptions from James Blackwell. Starting to work on those.
It looks like a lot but I only do 1, 2 and 6 every day depending on how much time I have. Once you are familiar with the exercises you would be surprised how much you can accomplish in 20 or 30 minutes.
What ever you choose to play, just play something every day. That keeps you moving forward or at least not moving backward.
BTW, I have a mimeographed copy of Rise from high school that I break out and play once in awhile as well.
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Last edited by gwood66 on Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Hello Gary. That's a great concise synopsis of warm up & exercises. Taking a page (pardon the pun) from yourself & other very helpful people & suggestions, I'm putting together a routine that covers these things without being all over the map. Great, thanks! By the way in the version of Herb Alpert's Rise that I downloaded the section I am working on contains a G# off the staff & an A off the staff. Coming along with that at this point. What I like about the song, aside from the song itself are some tricky fingering passages. Helps me work on my valve dexterity aside from learning the song. Also looking at what one of the guys on this forum sent me to work on my embouchure. I've come to realize that their is a difference between hitting a note & playing it correctly. Thanks & stay well.. |
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cheiden
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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In my own experience, I think that just playing can improve many aspects of your game. But the technical stuff really needs to be worked out in the practice room.
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jvf1095
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Joined: 18 Jan 2019
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Agreed. Taking all suggestions, I thank you guys for guiding me with this. I am going to put together a little program for myself that works on all aspects of technical requirements & exercises that isn't all over the map, based on the level I'm trying to reach. There's a saying, All work & no play makes Jack a dull boy. So for me, it will be some work & play too, with playing different songs that cover notes below, in & above the staff. Goal, high C clean. Don't need to be a screamer at this point. BUT, not just hit a high C, but rather play it with a clean correct embouchure as if it were a C in the staff. |
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Billy B
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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You need to take lessons, practice drills, and play.
Just like golf.
Unless you're OK with shooting over 100 EVERY time.
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Croquethed
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | Unless you're OK with shooting over 100 EVERY time. |
Actually, once you groove your swing, it's really not hard to play bogey golf at all with no lessons and hardly any practice. Breaking 80 is another story. |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| The golf analogy is a good one. I guess it's human nature to say if I can break 100 consistently & shoot in the 90s I'll be satisfied. But once you do, you want more. With the horn though, & maybe like golf, I'm just trying to set realistic goals I can reach myself, based on what I'm learning here. Once I reach them, I'll see if I want more, which would involve lessons. |
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dr_trumpet
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| jvf1095 wrote: | | The golf analogy is a good one. I guess it's human nature to say if I can break 100 consistently & shoot in the 90s I'll be satisfied. But once you do, you want more. With the horn though, & maybe like golf, I'm just trying to set realistic goals I can reach myself, based on what I'm learning here. Once I reach them, I'll see if I want more, which would involve lessons. |
If you really want to do this, at least talk with a good teacher to get you set up on a potential fulfillment path. I cannot tell you the number of students I've seen in my teaching career who love to play, but don't love to do the technical studies and fundamentals to build their talents and abilities.
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trickg
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| Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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So, jvf1095 - you wanna play trumpet, eh?
Question - how old are you, and where are you on your musical journey with the horn?
I know that when I was coming up and learning the instrument - 5th through 12th grades, all I did was what I knew. I didn't have a private teacher - all I had was band class and competition amongst my peers. That meant that I was mostly just working on the pieces that we were playing in band class, and later on in band and jazz band, once I got into high school.
What I can tell you is this: if for some bizarre quirk in quantum mechanics I was transported into my Freshman/15 year old self knowing what I know now....
I would have worked A LOT of drills. I had an Arban's book that I rarely used, but I'd have added Clarke technical studies, and I would have worked my fool butt off on technique.
Why?
Because technique is what ALLOWS you to play. Of course there's always a balance to be struck - technique without expression is almost as bad as trying to play but having crummy technique. Musically I've always been pretty solid, but technically....
You have to figure that ALL trumpet playing - and it really doesn't matter what it is - is made up of a few very basic constructs:
Sound/tone production
Articulation
Flexibilities
Fingers
Along the way you add time, rhythm, dynamics, expression, phrasing, etc, but the more control you have over that short list of fundamentals, the easier it is to play and be expressive.
So, getting back to your question, just play or....?
What do you want to do with it? Do you want only have fun, fumble around with it and mostly suck, or do you really want to PLAY?
I got lucky in my time as a trumpet player. When I was 18 I joined the Army on delayed entry to be an Army trumpet player. When I was still just 19 years old I made it to my first band assignment after basic training and the School of Music. The first two years at my first band assignment were CRITICAL to my development as a player. I was playing with some guys who had music degrees and in most cases were a good 10+ years older and more seasoned than me, so I had to come up to speed fast. I spent a lot of time in those first two years backfilling on technique that I probably should have learned prior to that, and also learning to play musically with a section or small ensemble. I spent a lot of time in the evenings outside of daily rehearsals doing fundamental drills to improve on the basics of articulation, (this one is often overlooked and it's SO important) tone production and flexibilities.
So what do I think? I think you should do boring-@$$ drills every other day to really lock in your technique. There will be plenty of time later to "just play" but it will be much more rewarding if you don't have to think so hard about the physical aspects of playing the horn.
Sorry for the long post.
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Billy B
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| jvf1095 wrote: | | The golf analogy is a good one. I guess it's human nature to say if I can break 100 consistently & shoot in the 90s I'll be satisfied. But once you do, you want more. With the horn though, & maybe like golf, I'm just trying to set realistic goals I can reach myself, based on what I'm learning here. Once I reach them, I'll see if I want more, which would involve lessons. |
Then there are those golfers who own a dozen drivers trying to find one that doesn't slice.
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trickg
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | jvf1095 wrote: | | The golf analogy is a good one. I guess it's human nature to say if I can break 100 consistently & shoot in the 90s I'll be satisfied. But once you do, you want more. With the horn though, & maybe like golf, I'm just trying to set realistic goals I can reach myself, based on what I'm learning here. Once I reach them, I'll see if I want more, which would involve lessons. |
Then there are those golfers who own a dozen drivers trying to find one that doesn't slice. |
You'll see that with almost everything that has "hobby" attached to it. That's why there's such a market for mouthpieces - everyone wants to find that mouthpiece that just plays itself, when in fact it's the player themselves who have to learn how to play in the first place.
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Patrick Gleason
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- Brasspire Unicorn C
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Andy Del
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:26 am Post subject: |
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It seems more the OP has made it clear they want to improve, not just play along for sh!ts and giggles... so there is zero room for the ‘just play’ approach, unless wishes to cop out, not do the work needed to achieve their goals and have something apart from themselves to blame.
So, bottom line, go practice the skills you need! Range, articulation, flexibility, sound concept, etc so you can play as you wish to.
Cheers
Andy
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trickg
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Andy Del wrote: | It seems more the OP has made it clear they want to improve, not just play along for sh!ts and giggles... so there is zero room for the ‘just play’ approach, unless wishes to cop out, not do the work needed to achieve their goals and have something apart from themselves to blame.
So, bottom line, go practice the skills you need! Range, articulation, flexibility, sound concept, etc so you can play as you wish to.
Cheers
Andy |
Most of my formative years were the "just play" approach, mainly because it was the only approach I knew.
I've talked about my jumps in ability that I had and my thoughts on why I had them many times on this forum in the 18 or so years I've been on it.
I've specifically made mention of my Freshman year in high school. I was obsessed with playing trumpet at the time, and as of yet, I still didn't have a part-time job. My day was as follows:
- 07:45 - get to school, go directly to the band room, and get my horn out to start warming up for band class.
- 1st period - band class
- Lunch - eat quickly and back up to the band room to noodle on my horn for 20 more minutes or so before 6th period jazz band. This was every other day - the other days I was in the show choir, but I'd still play my horn before show choir.
- After school - back up in the band room to play some more.
- Evenings - some nights we'd have pep band - I LIVED for those!
I don't remember actually "practicing" much that year, but everything - my sound, range, fingers, rhythmic ability...it was a significant jump in ability that year, and not because I was drilling fundamentals, but simply because I was playing ALL THE TIME. When I was playing, I was trying to be better. I knew when I was making a mistake or not sounding good, so I did my best to be better.
I did quite well doing it that way too. By the time I was a Junior/Senior, I was doing better about practicing, but I didn't have a private teacher, so I was self-guiding. Like so many developing players I was quick to work on stuff I did well, and shied away from the things that didn't come as easily, and I was still mostly a "just play" kind of player. It got me into honor bands and I won solo and ensemble contests, but frankly that had as much to do with my lack of competition than my ability with the horn.
Hindsight being what it is, I wish like heck I'd have spent more time really digging in to technical drills during my formative years when I really had the time to do it. I was lucky enough that the playing I did was enough to build my technique sufficiently so that I could get into the Army band program and not flunk out of the School of Music - I saw many of my High School level classmates get the boot because they couldn't hang, and a couple of college educated folks I knew struggled.
I did wind up paying my dues in the practice room later, but it's not always easy trying to backfill technique when you're trying to be a working/professional player. (ostensibly - it was the Army after all, so there was a paycheck whether you sucked or not, and there was definitely some dead weight in the Army band program.)
I suppose it paid off though. In the Army band program there's this level that players try to achieve, known as the C1 (Charlie 1) identifier. In short, if you score high enough on your outgoing audition at the Army School of Music, you get the C1 identifier awarded to you. On the old 4.0 scoring system, you needed to score 2.7 to pass, but 3.0 or better got you the C1. On the new 36 point system, for the Senior Leadership Course you needed 19 to pass, but 30 points or better to get the C1. I scored 31 at SLC in early 2019, and felt I could have played better.
In any case, I'm not terrible, but I'm still not good enough to work freelance in New York, LA or Nashville, and that's just being honest. Simply put, my technique isn't strong enough.
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Last edited by trickg on Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MusicByThePound
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Location: Upstate NY
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| Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:49 am Post subject: |
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I vote for practicing fundamentals.
Played in a band with a friend who was a pretty good "just play" guy in his 60's - could sight read and make the parts OK but not all that together on the physical playing side, intonation, articulation, control, etc.
Connected him with the guy I was taking lessons with who was all about fundamentals and "just play" guy started hitting the Clarke book and learning how to get himself together every day.
Once he started getting his chops together it unlocked his creativity and gave him the tool(s) he had lacked to say what was in his mind.
This happened over 2-3 years but he caught on to how it was helping him pretty early and it motivated him to keep practicing and his improv and section playing flowered. |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I can agree that lessons are my best bet. But I would rather take them face to face either in my home or at an instructor's studio. BUT, with the Covid issues, that will unfortunately have t wait. Now I know what some of you might say, that I can take lessons on line, Skype, etc. However, as far as developing & working on my embrecure, I feel there is only so much one can "see" via video. I downloaded instruction exercises & between that & all the help & suggestions via this post I can work on that for now. Thanks!!! |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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An item that I think is being missed in this discussion is the 'content' of the material that is included in the 'just play' approach.
I feel that a thoughtful person who is seriously looking to improve can use the various books, youtube, blogs, etc. to do a fairly decent job of selecting the material to be included in the 'just play' method. Of course the person has to be willing to choose and learn material that is difficult at first, and be disciplined enough to keep pushing their boundaries in the right direction.
I don't think that 'just play' means avoiding all structure and only doing easy and fun sessions. I view it as developing a thought-out path, but without the explicit direction and supervision of a formal teacher or 'script'.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Croquethed
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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The golf analogy, continued...
If I take my semi-antique carcass to the back tees and try to play a 7500-yard monster, I will indeed "suck." I hit the ball fairly straight but my average drive is 225 maybe. So I just don't have the length to play that without a lot of extra strokes.
OTOH, if I play within my known limits (in my case, 6000 yards or so), I will not threaten Tiger but will not particularly "suck."
For me, "just play" includes fundamentals but no written exercises. I could incorporate them and gradually increase tempo, I suppose, but I can now rip out a 12-bar blues improv on the fly in any key without a second thought. And I love the sound of the blues. So I don't think of that as "sucking."
When I take the horn up to the park and people say "Thank you, that sounded great," even though to me it may just be adequate, I don't think of it as "sucking."
We all have different goals and approaches. I never was a pro and will never be one, but for my metaphorical 6,000-yard trumpet course, I am quite content. I would hope everybody who plays at a less than working pro level could feel the same way. |
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jvf1095
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| Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Good posts guys, & Jay, you hit the nail on the head with me. I will & have practiced viua long tones, lip slurs, passages with "tricky valve combinations. But my just play is as Jay indicated if I understood him correctly. One song for example, is Why Don't You Believe me as sung by the Duprees. I couldn't find their version sheet music, but found Patti Page's. For her, great middle to near top of staff notes. Since I couldn't find the Duprees version, I re-wrote the sheet music in their key the way they sing it> (I can actually "hear" the notes in my head because I sang it dozens of times on base at NAS JAX in 1969 at the EM club). So I transposed Patty Page's version down to the Duprees version. Wrote it myself. There isn't a note above an A in the staff, & at least 15 notes below the staff, including F#s, C#s, etc. So almost all middle of the staff to the lowest note below the staff. Tougher to play & sound good than Page's version. Beyond that, a tough song for me, like Rise, with very tricky valve combinations that took me a couple of weeks to get right. Started out very slow flipping back & forth, worked on it & can now play it almost at the tempo Herb can. In Rise, there arer notes at or above the staff, F's, G's, A's, etc. Easy for most of you guys; tougher for me but getting there. In between that, songs like It's Been a Long Long Time, Moonlight Serenade, Midnight in Moscow (Kenny Ball & His Jazzmen), Love Potion #9 as played by Herb Alpert in a "stripper" type way, lots of lip slurs & lip bends. So that's just an idea of my "just play' idea. YES guys, I need to work on exercises as well to develop my embouchure, endurance, etc, & I can put a practice routine together based on what I picked up in this forum & particularly in this post. But at least I am hopefully accomplishing some of that as well by learning to play songs that I couldn't play before. THANKS! |
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Billy B
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| Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| jvf1095 wrote: | | I can agree that lessons are my best bet. But I would rather take them face to face either in my home or at an instructor's studio. BUT, with the Covid issues, that will unfortunately have t wait. Now I know what some of you might say, that I can take lessons on line, Skype, etc. However, as far as developing & working on my embrecure, I feel there is only so much one can "see" via video. I downloaded instruction exercises & between that & all the help & suggestions via this post I can work on that for now. Thanks!!! |
I teach lessons via ZOOM: beginner through adult. It works fine.
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falado
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| Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Hi OP, give Jeff Purtle a shout and talk to him about Skype or FaceTime. I've been taking lessons that way and it's helping me recover from major thoracic surgery. Yes, chops can be analyzed via video and he can observe and hear what you are doing and give routines that will help achieve your goals and he is experienced and good at it. yes, I would like to do lessons one on one in person, but I do save on gas $ and travel time.
Dave
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