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Upgrading a horn for my daughter


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lurchbird
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you everyone for your kind and valuable input. I appreciate the generosity of your time that you took to read and respond to my query. I particularly love trickg's story about his son, and digging deep to pay for the instrument that resonates with the player.

I have set up a follow-up trial with the Horn Stash to have my daughter play the top three contenders again with a fresh set of chops. This includes the new Bach Strad 43, a new Schilke i32, and a used Benge 3 Bell. She'll be trying Yamahas this week, and hopefully we'll be able to take the 45 minute drive to check out the used Bach Strad 43. A couple o f you mentioned "red rot." How do I check for that?

Thanks again everyone!
Mark
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Bryant Jordan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you see any ‘red dots’ on the lead pipe (sometimes on the main tuning slide, but that’s more reasonable replaced), that’s red rot. Honestly, if it doesn’t look scary, you’re fine. Red rot doesn’t affect how the horn plays unless it’s been developing for a decade or so, but if your daughter is going to stick with the horn for the long run, it’s best to steer clear of it.
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Tuningbell
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The link below gives a very good description and has an image of a lacquer horn with red rot. On a silver plated horn the plating might be bubbled and the discolouration might not be as noticeable.
Buying a used instrument is a bit like buying a used car. If you are not qualified or comfortable in what you are looking at, the instrument should be reviewed by a qualified brass technician just like you would have a car reviewed by a mechanic prior to purchasing. Any issues or problems found to be used to negotiate the price.

http://www.brassandwoodwind.com.au/red-rot/
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trickg
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurchbird wrote:
Thank you everyone for your kind and valuable input. I appreciate the generosity of your time that you took to read and respond to my query. I particularly love trickg's story about his son, and digging deep to pay for the instrument that resonates with the player.

I have set up a follow-up trial with the Horn Stash to have my daughter play the top three contenders again with a fresh set of chops. This includes the new Bach Strad 43, a new Schilke i32, and a used Benge 3 Bell. She'll be trying Yamahas this week, and hopefully we'll be able to take the 45 minute drive to check out the used Bach Strad 43. A couple o f you mentioned "red rot." How do I check for that?

Thanks again everyone!
Mark

The money thing can be daunting, especially when looking at an instrument that you don't know if they'll continue to use after high school. There are so many stories about kids getting the ubiquitous Bach Strad in high school only to abandon it immediately thereafter. It then sits in a closet somewhere, and later down the road gets sold off for a fraction of what was paid for it, usually because the young adult needed/wanted money for something.

I think what also inspired me to buy the better guitar for my son is that guitars are a little different than trumpets when it comes to hobbyist usage later down the road - a guitar can stand on it's own as both a solo instrument and an accompaniment instrument. Trumpets? Not so much.

You never know what might ignite the spark though, and it's different with different kids. My parents didn't actually buy that Bach Strad for me - they bought it for my older sister - she got a brand new Bach, and I got the horn she had been playing, a Yamaha 739T - also a pro-level instrument. She was a senior the year I was a freshman, and she was GOOD. Like near the top chair in the various state honor bands, including All-State. By the middle of her senior year she'd decided she wasn't going to pursue trumpet - it didn't mesh with what she decided were going to be life goals. She has always been much more money-driven than me, and as a result, she didn't see a way to play trumpet at a high level AND be able to have a career that would make the kind of money she wanted to make. To my knowledge the last time she played a trumpet was at Christmas of her Freshman year of college - she played a chromatic scale to 2nd ledger C, just to see if she still could. At that point I had both horns - the Yamaha and the Bach that she'd more or less discarded.

I was the one who took the ball and ran with it where music was concerned, because money has never been a driving factor in my life. More is better than less, but I never wanted to sacrifice my ability to continue to play and gig for a career that made more money.

Your daughter may be like my sister, or she may wind up like me - who knows? However, if she has the right tools and gets that spark like I did, or like my son did, (my daughter sings, but I never managed to get her to get passionate about playing an instrument) who knows where the instrument could take care. It took me from podunk Nebraska to the White House lawn.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurchbird wrote:
A couple o f you mentioned "red rot." How do I check for that?


Red rot is an acid-induced loss of zinc in the copper-zinc alloy that is brass (typically 70-30 yellow brass). It is characterized by a pitting of the inside surface of the leadpipe or other portion of the horn which can be seen using a borescope. When it works through to the outside of the tubing, it appears as small black dots with a loss of finish surrounding them (as this is a tiny penetration, and moisture can follow). These dots of finish loss may eventually turn pink, especially if it is a lacquered horn and the lacquer separates, but remains in place trapping venting acidic moisture against the brass. The black dot at the center of a finish blemish is the key thing to look for though, and will appear in silver plating as well.

Red all over the surface is acid staining, but not red rot. A lot of folks are fooled by this with older horns that may have been stained by chemical exposure or solder flux left behind from repairs.

This 1953 Olds Mendez, if you zoom in, has a lot of red rot starting in the leadpipe. The Conn 22B Victor below it has acid staining, but no rot.






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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurchbird wrote:
Thank you everyone for your kind and valuable input. I appreciate the generosity of your time that you took to read and respond to my query. I particularly love trickg's story about his son, and digging deep to pay for the instrument that resonates with the player.

I have set up a follow-up trial with the Horn Stash to have my daughter play the top three contenders again with a fresh set of chops. This includes the new Bach Strad 43, a new Schilke i32, and a used Benge 3 Bell. She'll be trying Yamahas this week, and hopefully we'll be able to take the 45 minute drive to check out the used Bach Strad 43. A couple o f you mentioned "red rot." How do I check for that?

Thanks again everyone! Mark


A good Benge is a sweet horn. Make sure it doesn't have "USA" stamped on the valve casing. Those were made by King and not so good as the Los Angelis made horns.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurchbird wrote:
I have set up a follow-up trial with the Horn Stash to have my daughter play the top three contenders again with a fresh set of chops. This includes the new Bach Strad 43, a new Schilke i32, and a used Benge 3 Bell. She'll be trying Yamahas this week, and hopefully we'll be able to take the 45 minute drive to check out the used Bach Strad 43.


Someone who has been playing for only 4 years and is only about to start high school is very unlikely to be able to evaluate a trumpet in anything but an extremely general way, such as evaluating cosmetics, ergonomics and the general reputation of the manufacturer.

During high school, if she's a serious player, she'll be maturing her approach to how she plays the horn, she'll probably have a mouthpiece change, she'll probably develop a focus on a type of music she's most interested in playing, etc., etc. etc. All of these things will affect her response to the playing characteristics of the horn and/or will affect her approach to how she plays the horn.

So, absent testing a horn that has obvious mechanical issues, her testing horns, which in this case just means playing them without any real experience in evaluating results, is not going to provide information beyond the basics of what she likes best at this particular moment, a decision that is heavily influenced with young players by cosmetics, ergonomics and the general reputation of the manufacturer.

If I were you I'd be taking a very long term view. A Bach Strad is a trumpet to own forever. It is the most widely played professional level trumpet in the world. It is an all around horn suitable for anything. Buying a Bach Strad is the safest investment you can make in a professional level trumpet especially for a young player.

The Schilke i32 is a new design. Who plays one? Who knows where it fits into the the spectrum of trumpets available? I wouldn't even consider it for a high school level player. It's a gamble. Why gamble?

Although my main horn from 1966 to about 2000 (when I started collecting trumpets) was a Benge 3X (the 3X is a ML .460 bore with the #3 bell) and I have a very sentimental attachment to that trumpet, I still recommend a Bach Strad for the player who owns only one trumpet.

If you're going to consider the Benge anyway you need to understand that there have been several incarnations of the Benge 3X: (1) The original Benge ML bore trumpets (they did not have bell numbers stamped on them but, in fact, had what was later called the #3 bell) were made from 1935 to 1953 in Chicago; (2) From 1953 to 1971 Benge 3X trumpets were made in Burbank, California and they were essentially the same design as the later Chicago ML trumpets but the bell number was stamped into the ferrule where the bell attaches to the first valve casing; (3) in 1971 Benge was acquired by the King Instrument Company and they made Benge trumpets in Anaheim, California until 1983 with "Los Angeles" being stamped on the bell. From 1971 to the beginning of 1976 the bell number was stamped on the ferrule where the bell attaches to the first valve casing. In 1976 the bell number started being stamped on the bell. The Los Angeles trumpets are not as highly regarded as the Chicago and Burbank trumpets (that may be simply because they are not considered as collectible) but they are still considered professional level trumpets as it is believed that the Burbank tooling was used in Los Angeles (although some of the last trumpets stamped "Los Angeles" were actually made in whole or in part by UMI and, therefore, are suspect in terms of quality and/or design); (4) in 1983 Benge was acquired by UMI. UMI ultimately changed the design of the horns and moved production to Eastlake, Ohio and started stamping them as made in the U.S.A. UMI Benge trumpets stamped "U.S.A." may look like Chicago/Burbank/Los Angeles Benge trumpets but they are a different design and are considered inferior to the original design. UMI Benge trumpets are not considered to be professional level.

You can read more about the history of the Benge trumpet at:

http://www.musicbyjoelill.com/benge/

Yamaha makes good trumpets. However, if you're going to own only one trumpet the one to own is a Bach Strad. When your daughter gets into college she's going to find that the Bach Strad is, by far, the most played trumpet by her fellow students (there will be Model 37's and Model 43's played by most of the other students), so she'll fit right in. When she gets to college or after college, if she wants to be a soloist or a lead player who stands out from the section, THAT is the time to look at a trumpet designed for that purpose to supplement her all-around horn.

To me, under the specific circumstances you describe, this is a no-brainer. Buy the Bach Strad. Either a Model 37 or a Model 43 will be fine.
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Tuningbell
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A good Benge is a sweet horn. Make sure it doesn't have "USA" stamped on the valve casing. Those were made by King and not so good as the Los Angelis made horns.


I think the above might be a bit off. The bells were stamped USA. However, it could be both or either location. The 90B Benge model had USA on the bell and and the middle valve. If it says USA on the instrument in either location I’d avoid it. KANSTUL used to stamp valve casings on the F. Bessons.(But that’s an entirely different subject) Neither the UMI or Conn Selmer “Benges” are as good as an LA Benge in my opinion. There might be a few good “Leonare” horns out there but they are not “Classic Benge” same advice holds though... if she plays it and likes it.. then that’s her horn regardless of make/model/popularity. One caveat, if she goes in to university for trumpet some professors of trumpet insist the students play a particular model and brand. (This may have changed now but was a thing for some of my peers who had to acquire Bach 37’s to study with a specific teacher.

source - The late Jim Donaldson https://everythingtrumpet.com/gearhead/Benge.html
The U.M.I. Period.
King continued the production of the Benge product line in Anaheim until 1983, when they moved production to Eastlake, Ohio, the H.N. White (King) shop. In 1985, G.C. Conn purchased King and later that year both were absorbed by a Swedish conglomerate and the resulting company was named United Musical Instruments, or U.M.I. The last Los Angles Benge horns have serial numbers, so far as I have been able to determine, in the 44XXX range, though there are some odd horns in the transition that were made in Ohio with parts made in Los Angeles, etc. They may have Ohio bells but valve casings with five digit serial numbers or other anomalies. Most of the Benge designs stayed in UMI catalog for a while but slowly thinned. These "UMI Benges" are considered inferior, sell for less used, and are of uneven quality. They have "USA" stamped on the bell where the Burbank and Los Angeles identifications appeared previously. Also, all of the Ohio horns have six, or later eight, digit serial numbers.

The Conn-Selmer Period.
In 2000, UMI was purchased by Steinway, the owner of Bach-Selmer, makers of Bach trumpets, and the corporate name changed to Conn-Selmer. The classic Benge product line continued to diminish in favor of the Eastlake designed instruments, like the Lenore series. The 3x and the 3x+, the piccolo trumpet, and pocket trumpet became the last remaining classic Benge instruments in the catalog until production of all Benge products was suspended in 2005. Existing stock was still available for sale and marketed for a couple of years. By 2007, however, the only Benge instruments offered for sale are a bass trombone (!!!!!) and the Colibi (whatever that means) pocket trumpet. The end is in sight and will surely come ...
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Schilke i32 is a professional horn.
Schilke doesn't build student horns. The i32 has a different design than the B. S, X, and HD series. All Schilke horns are all built to very high standards.
Look here for more detail.
https://www.schilkemusic.com/bb-trumpets/
You can also look into the Jupiter line. They are seriously good horns.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regardless of which 'pro' horn is chosen - KEEP the Yamaha YTR-200ADii, and use it for all situations where 'safe keeping' of the horn is uncertain - such as marching band, pep band, etc. The pro horn should be handled and treated carefully; not left setting on a chair or trumpet stand during breaks (put it back into the case!)

Be certain that your daughter favors the particular 'pro' horn - avoid pressuring her into accepting something else. MY recommendation would be a Bach, simply because Bach is always recognized and accepted as being a fine pro horn. Yes, other brands do also make true 'pro' horns, but Bach is still the 'standard of comparison' (and that doesn't mean that it is thought to always be the best - just a Bach is what others are compared against).
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
The Schilke i32 is a professional horn.
Schilke doesn't build student horns. The i32 has a different design than the B. S, X, and HD series. All Schilke horns are all built to very high standards.
Look here for more detail.
https://www.schilkemusic.com/bb-trumpets/
You can also look into the Jupiter line. They are seriously good horns.
R. Tomasek


Yes, all Schilke horns are professional level and are built to very high standards. I have a Schilke BL1, BL5B, BL6B and BL7 and they are all very fine horns. Nonetheless, under the circumstances described by the OP, my advice is still to buy the Bach Strad.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
Someone who has been playing for only 4 years and is only about to start high school is very unlikely to be able to evaluate a trumpet ....

During high school, if she's a serious player, she'll be maturing her approach to how she plays the horn, she'll probably have a mouthpiece change...

So, absent testing a horn that has obvious mechanical issues, her testing horns, which in this case just means playing them without any real experience in evaluating results, is not going to provide information beyond the basics of what she likes best...

yada yada yada....

It's not that your post doesn't have merit, it does, but it's also opinionated and possibly way overthought.

I think we've agreed that the Bach 43 is probably a good bet, but to discount the i32 because it's new, especially given the longstanding reputation of excellence the Schilke name has represented, (and FAR more than Bach, which arguably took a pretty solid nosedive in consistency and quality after Vincent sold to Selmer, chiefly because they completely changed the design of the horn aside from cosmetic features) is a bit of a stretch.

We're talking about a kid with a growing interest in playing, and a Dad who wants to do right by the kid by putting a quality instrument in the kid's hands. In a lot of regards it isn't going to be WHAT horn, but simply that is a NEW horn, that's going to do the trick, and there are lots of horns that would fit the bill.

Taking a bit of a sidebar here, in this day and age, it's mind-boggling to me that Bach still has some kind of stranglehold on the idea of what should constitute a player's "next step" trumpet. It's like it's the knee jerk reaction of every music educator/band teacher out there.

Parent: "Little Johnny/Julie is doing well and we'd like to look into getting them a new trump..."
Band Teacher: "SILVER BACH STRADIVARIUUUUUUUUUSSSSS!!!!!!!"

It isn't that they aren't decent - they are. But, are they really any "better" than other professional offerings from other brands? No. Not at all. I play a Jupiter. The late John Blount, former lead player of the US Navy Commodores played a Jupiter. Mark Brown, lead player of the US Army Blues was playing a vintage Benge last I knew. My friend Mark...not sure, but it's not a Bach - at least not on his recent FB videos. My friend Jeremy - Yamaha Chicago. The late Paul Dubois was playing a Schilke X3 the last I knew. My friend Scott - Benge 90B Lenore. My friend Josh - Edwards. I can think of more people I knew who weren't playing a Bach than were.

Touching on my Jupiter, it's the 1600i Ingram model. I got it specifically for using it to play rock horn lines in the wedding band, and it's AWESOME for that. I use it to play church gigs too - maybe not ideal, but it gets it done.

I think if this Dad puts ANY quality pro-level horn in his daughter's hands, she's going to be inspired to practice, and it's going to up her game.

Let's not overthink the "what" - at this stage it's more important for her to be happy and confident in it, no matter what it is.

And thus I wrap up MY opinionated post.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lurchbird,
If you are going to The Horn Stash in Palatine, you picked a terrific store.
Good folks and a good supply of horns. They don't sell bad horns.
I also am in the Bach camp. If she really likes the 43 and it is a good horn, she will enjoy it for years.
I've had 72, 43, and 37 Bach bells. All good, but the 43 and 37 are more friendly to a young player.
Good luck!
R. Tomasek
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen to the player, not the pundits.
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lurchbird
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
If you are going to The Horn Stash in Palatine, you picked a terrific store.
Good folks and a good supply of horns. They don't sell bad horns.


I agree! We purchased a vintage 1969 Elkhart Conn 79H Trombone there for our older son, as well as upgraded mouthpieces for all 3 kids. They've also worked on 2 other used horns I purchased that needed attention.

Mark
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
Someone who has been playing for only 4 years and is only about to start high school is very unlikely to be able to evaluate a trumpet ....

During high school, if she's a serious player, she'll be maturing her approach to how she plays the horn, she'll probably have a mouthpiece change...

So, absent testing a horn that has obvious mechanical issues, her testing horns, which in this case just means playing them without any real experience in evaluating results, is not going to provide information beyond the basics of what she likes best...

yada yada yada....

It's not that your post doesn't have merit, it does, but it's also opinionated and possibly way overthought.

I think we've agreed that the Bach 43 is probably a good bet, but to discount the i32 because it's new, especially given the longstanding reputation of excellence the Schilke name has represented, (and FAR more than Bach, which arguably took a pretty solid nosedive in consistency and quality after Vincent sold to Selmer, chiefly because they completely changed the design of the horn aside from cosmetic features) is a bit of a stretch.

We're talking about a kid with a growing interest in playing, and a Dad who wants to do right by the kid by putting a quality instrument in the kid's hands. In a lot of regards it isn't going to be WHAT horn, but simply that is a NEW horn, that's going to do the trick, and there are lots of horns that would fit the bill.

Taking a bit of a sidebar here, in this day and age, it's mind-boggling to me that Bach still has some kind of stranglehold on the idea of what should constitute a player's "next step" trumpet. It's like it's the knee jerk reaction of every music educator/band teacher out there.

Parent: "Little Johnny/Julie is doing well and we'd like to look into getting them a new trump..."
Band Teacher: "SILVER BACH STRADIVARIUUUUUUUUUSSSSS!!!!!!!"

It isn't that they aren't decent - they are. But, are they really any "better" than other professional offerings from other brands? No. Not at all. I play a Jupiter. The late John Blount, former lead player of the US Navy Commodores played a Jupiter. Mark Brown, lead player of the US Army Blues was playing a vintage Benge last I knew. My friend Mark...not sure, but it's not a Bach - at least not on his recent FB videos. My friend Jeremy - Yamaha Chicago. The late Paul Dubois was playing a Schilke X3 the last I knew. My friend Scott - Benge 90B Lenore. My friend Josh - Edwards. I can think of more people I knew who weren't playing a Bach than were.

Touching on my Jupiter, it's the 1600i Ingram model. I got it specifically for using it to play rock horn lines in the wedding band, and it's AWESOME for that. I use it to play church gigs too - maybe not ideal, but it gets it done.

I think if this Dad puts ANY quality pro-level horn in his daughter's hands, she's going to be inspired to practice, and it's going to up her game.

Let's not overthink the "what" - at this stage it's more important for her to be happy and confident in it, no matter what it is.

And thus I wrap up MY opinionated post.


I didn't say the Bach Strad is a better trumpet than the other trumpets mentioned. "Better" is a highly subjective word and "better" depends on the player, the mouthpiece and the situation as well as the horn.

What I said is that the Bach Strad is "...the most widely played professional level trumpet in the world. It is an all around horn suitable for anything. Buying a Bach Strad is the safest investment you can make in a professional level trumpet especially for a young player."

Lots of great trumpet players have played trumpets other than a Bach Strad. That doesn't change the fact that the Bach Strad is "...the most widely played professional level trumpet in the world. It is an all around horn suitable for anything. Buying a Bach Strad is the safest investment you can make in a professional level trumpet especially for a young player."

Here we're taking about a player with only 4 years of experience getting ready to enter high school. The "best" horn for her overall in terms of playing characteristics now and in the future is unknown, will not be reliably determined by her testing horns and is likely to change considerably over the next several years.

The Bach Strad is by far the most popular professional trumpet in use on any level (student, amateur and professional) and in any genre. For a student with only 4 years of experience who is just entering high school who is in no position to accurately identify the "best" horn for her now and for the future a Bach Strad is absolutely the safest bet in terms of individual performance, blending with other players (who are also most likely playing Bach Strads) and resale value.

I have 4 Bach Strads in my collection of over 50 trumpets: A Mt. Vernon Model 37, a Mt. Vernon Model 43, an Elkhart Model 72* and an Elkhart Model 25. They are, each and all, excellent horns. That being said, I don't play any of them in performances. For jazz improvisation I play a 1953 Martin Committee Deluxe Large Bore or an Adams A8. For shows I play a Calicchio 1s/2. I don't play orchestral gigs but if I did I'd bring one of the Bach Strads, probably the Mt. Vernon Model 37.

With 50+ horns I can be very choosy. The OP's daughter, however, needs one professional all around trumpet. That's all we really know about her other than the fact that she's been playing for only 4 years and is entering high school. So, I'm playing the odds based on that limited knowledge. Under those circumstances a Bach Strad, based on the experience of others over a very long period of time, is the statistically most likely choice to best serve all her interests at least through college and, at the same time, retain maximum resale value to a large group of potential buyers.

There may be other horns which would prove to be "better" for her in the long run but there's no reliable way to tell at her current level of experience. In this situation, based on what we know about the player and about the track record of horns, the Bach Strad is the safest choice for her for now.

Just my opinion on the matter but I've been consistent on this for the entire duration of time I've been on TH. Others can disagree with me, I don't mind. One of the great things about TH is that it brings out a lot of diversity of opinions which, in turn, promotes the sharing of information which, in turn, promotes knowledge and thinking about things. That's all good.
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Shawnino
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Regardless of which 'pro' horn is chosen - KEEP the Yamaha YTR-200ADii, and use it for all situations where 'safe keeping' of the horn is uncertain - [...]


Some of the best advice in the whole thread! Having a trumpet you can be a little more fearless with is a huge asset.

Not to terrorize OP, but sooner or later his daughter will be driving. Even if the Yamaha mostly lives in the trunk as an Emergency Trumpet, it'll have use.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m always amazed at what early age students get their expensive horns - I played my Blessing student horn until I had played for 12 years and was 20 yo. I clearly missed out on the fact that we’re only talking about 4 years playing experience here.

That is not to mean to not get her a new horn, just saying.
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Bicestertrumpeter
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
I’m always amazed at what early age students get their expensive horns - I played my Blessing student horn until I had played for 12 years and was 20 yo. I clearly missed out on the fact that we’re only talking about 4 years playing experience here.

That is not to mean to not get her a new horn, just saying.


Agree. Another thing is people haven't taken into account the fact that student horns are usually designed to play better for students. That is they have smaller leadpipes designed to slot the notes better. For that reason a 2000 series Yamaha may actually be a better instrument than, for example, a Yamah 6 or 8 series or a Bach Strad for a beginner. Though not a better instrument overall obviously. Buying a Strad for a beginner may make things harder rather than easier. Of course if their standard is high this is not relevant.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
What I said is that the Bach Strad is "...the most widely played professional level trumpet in the world. It is an all around horn suitable for anything. Buying a Bach Strad is the safest investment you can make in a professional level trumpet especially for a young player."

That's what Bach advertises anyway, but they also still have that stranglehold on the idea that the Bach Strad is THE step-up professional level horn for an aspiring young player.

I wouldn't bet that they are still THE most used professional horn. Maybe for orchestral work, but for commercial work it really runs the gamut - all you have to do is look around at players like Arturo Sandoval, Roger Ingram, Wayne Bergeron, Bill Chase, Maynard Ferguson, Pat Hession, Joey Tartell, Wynton Marsalis... There's a whole lot of OTB (Other Than Bach) being used out there by the commercial and studio guys.

However, in this case the argument is kinda moot - I'm actually saying that Dad should try to find a way to get THE Bach 43 that his daughter liked.

Bicestertrumpeter wrote:
Agree. Another thing is people haven't taken into account the fact that student horns are usually designed to play better for students. That is they have smaller leadpipes designed to slot the notes better. For that reason a 2000 series Yamaha may actually be a better instrument than, for example, a Yamah 6 or 8 series or a Bach Strad for a beginner. Though not a better instrument overall obviously. Buying a Strad for a beginner may make things harder rather than easier. Of course if their standard is high this is not relevant.

As for all of the other tripe - and yes, I'm going to call it tripe - about student horns being easier for students blah blah blah....

Toward the end of my 8th grade year, I was handed a Yamaha 739T. It had a bore of .463. It was considerably easier to play than the beat up student model King cornet I had been playing. I remember it being almost effortless comparatively. From my 8th grade perspective, the horn played itself - it was SO much easier to play, and as a result, my playing ability went through a pretty major leap in the following year or so.

This is the first thread I have ever seen that suggests that student horns are designed to be easier to play for students. To my knowledge, they are all pretty basic designs - all of them are either .459 or .460 bore - the biggest difference is the care in which they were put together and the following QC - they are less expensive horns because they just aren't made as well. In fact, beginner students can't tell a difference, so where the rubber hits the road, it doesn't matter how well they play. Things like slotting aren't even a consideration for a younger player - they wouldn't know good slotting form bad slotting if it jumped up and bit them on the butt.

I can't imagine a single scenario where a kid goes from a basic beginner level trumpet to a Bach Strad, and the Strad is actually harder to play. I mean, seriously?

Gawd - the over-analysis on threads like this is mind boggling.
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