Finding The Right Horn?

[ngranard]

I've been playing for 10 years and the last 4 of those were with a YTR8335LA as my primary horn (Bach Strad 37 prior to that).

I know no horn is perfect, but I feel like I'm not getting the same energy/enjoyment out of it as when I first started on it. I feel like I enjoy that it's a lighter horn, but I've never confirmed, for instance, what bore size/feel I would truly prefer.

This has made me wonder, how do you know you've found the right horn? I'd imagine the only way is to play-test a ton, but (especially these days) I don't have much way to do this. So many people end up moving on from one horn to another, what do you think justifies the change? How do you know when it's time to start looking, or is that a waste of money?

If anyone is feeling like offering suggestions towards another horn, I would prefer to have something versatile over the need to swap horns for different styles.

Just looking to get some insights and thoughts, thanks.
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YTR 9335VSII
YTR 8335LA
Bach Strad 37

[JayKosta]

I'd start by considering the valve alignment of your current horn.

edit: Feb 2, 2021 - I mention the valve alignment because the horn has been played for 4 years, and NOW you seem to be noticing 'something different'.

No measuring or visual inspection for now. Just careful playing and listening to the 'sound quality' of all the various valve combinations (including 12 compared to 3 alone) - again just the sound quality, not pitch.

If some combinations sound a little 'off' or 'different', then a good valve alignment might fix it, and possibly improve the playability of the horn.

Try depressing the valves not quite to the bottom to see what that does, similar for UP valves. Unscrew the valve button a bit to increase the DOWN movement.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[RETrumpet]

Harrelson has some really good videos out there about how stronger players can lose energy in lighter horns. It could be that as you've played and gotten better that you are outgrowing the lighter weight setup.

I'd definitely go with JayKosta's recommendation first. Maintenance is always cheaper you can even just visually inspect down your valve slides with a flashlight. Flush it out, too. Maybe there is something in there. And a clean horn never hurt anything.

Also, think about your mouthpiece and measure your gap. The closer to your face, the more impactful the elements.
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Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe, Bach 226 with YTR-9445(2) pipe
D/Eb: Bach 239 with YTR-9636 pipe
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Scodwell Prototype

[zaferis]

Yes, I agree that adjustments to your current gear is a first good step.

But then realize that you've changed over the years. Not only will your physical structure change over time, your playing will mature (provided you're working on it), your ear will change, and your musical needs/wants will change.

To repeat RETrumpet's comment: " the closer to your face, the more impactful the elements." That's great advise.

mouthpiece, gap, lead pipe, tuning slide..etc. PLUS, if you tweak one element it WILL affect all the others. Balance is the key and hard to find.
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Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[Jerry]

I can't comment on the condition of your horn.

I can comment on my experience testing a YTR8335LA for several minutes on 2 or 3 occasions. It was way too open for me; too much work. Maybe it's too open for you, too.

I think at some point you will want to try a bunch of other horns.

[Bryant Jordan]

There are a TON of horns out there that can work for anything, but only a number of them will really resonate with you.

Try out as many horns as you can that meet your requirements, and keep the winner.

Also, remember that even two horns of the same model and ‘specs’ can play drastically different, so I’d recommend purchasing the actual one that works for you.

Good luck!

[Brassnose]

Make sure your horn is in good operating condition, such as proper valve alignment. See if you still have the same feeling, if yes, take a trip to Dillons or ACB and spend a happy day hunting down a new horn. Make sure to bring $$$$, you’ll almost certainly find something you really like
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2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[deleted_user_687c31b]

[wilder]

Hi. You have two great horns. What does your teacher say? jw

[Goby]

Pick the one that looks the coolest to you and then never try anything else. Trust me, this works better than any objective reasoning or comparison.

[walldaja]

Too many horns, not enough time!
_________________
Dave

Sonare TRC-800, Dennis Wick 1.5C
Blessing Standard, Denis Wick 1.5C
Accent TR959 CDB C tpt Stork XM2 Studio Mstr
Jupiter 846S Flug Schilke 18F
Shires Q30GR T-bone 5 / 4 CL
Yamaha YBL-421G T-bone 2 CL
Jean Baptist Euphonium Stork 4

[HERMOKIWI]

When you have a decent horn in good working condition (lots of horns fit that description) you are already at the point of diminishing returns.

Let's take something pretty basic as an example: An Olds Ambassador in good working condition. Let's assume that it needs nothing in the way of repairs or refurbishing and that the valves are fine and the compression is good. Sergei Nakariakov is going to be able to play on that horn anything he can play on any other horn. The sound may be better on another horn. The intonation and scale may be better on another horn. He may have to work a little less on another horn. But he is still going to sound other-worldly unbelievable on the Olds Ambassador and the rest of us are not going to come even close to pushing the limits of the Olds Ambassador.

So, what's the point of going beyond an Olds Ambassador in good working condition if we can't even come close to the limits of the Olds Ambassador?

Of course there are many reasons. Better (or more correct for our situation) sound. Better intonation. Better scale. Better ergonomics. Better blending. Brighter. Darker. More resonance. More core. More projection. More diffusion. Better response. Etc.

It's just that the differences are likely to be subtle rather than night and day (assuming the Olds Ambassador is in the condition described above).

One thing I haven't mentioned is that the trumpet is a "feel good" instrument. Feeling good about your horn is an important factor. You want to have confidence that it is the right horn for you and the best horn for you given all the particulars of what it is you want from a horn.

The "feel good" element is a significant and legitimate factor in motivating the purchase of a new (for the player) horn. Greater confidence that the horn matches our objectives and pride of ownership are both positive influences in the decision to buy a new (for the player) horn even if the ultimate performance differences are slight or even non-existent.

In my own case, after I demonstrated aptitude for two years on a garage sale cornet my father bought me an Olds Recording trumpet, a truly awesome horn. Four years later, after I'd shown a lot of advancement and commitment, he bought me a Burbank Benge 3X, another truly awesome horn.

Did the Benge, in and of itself, make me a better player? No. Could I do things technically on the Benge I couldn't do on the Olds? No. The Benge produced a different sound than the Olds but was it a better sound? Debatable. Did the Benge, in and of itself, promote faster advancement than the Olds? Not really. So, in retrospect, what was the point?

The point revolved around pride of ownership and motivation. The Olds was a mass produced horn. The Benge was a custom limited production horn. The Benge seemed on its face like a better horn although, in fact, it was just a different horn. The Benge was, in effect, a reward for advancement and commitment which motivated more advancement and commitment. It was a "feel good" horn.

There's nothing wrong with "feel good" horns. It's just that no horn can work a miracle. Regardless of the horn, the player still has to work to develop their skills. Nonetheless, feeling good about your horn can be a big motivator in terms of development and that is an entirely valid reason to acquire a new (for the player) horn the player feels fits that description for them.

It's all highly personal.
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HERMOKIWI

[Richard III]

Just another example of what should be our mantra. When asking what we should do, just ask, "What would HERMOWIKI do?" So many times I am in wonderment that someone would hit it just right and have the patience to type it all. Well done.
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Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[jhatpro]

I recall the journalist who was traveling with Wynton’s band for a book asking him to play something on a Bundy and he said he sounded just like Wynton.
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Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[cgaiii]

@HERMOKIWI
Beautifully put. Thoroughly agree, and power of feeling good about your horn really is significant, and it keeps the horn makers in business.

To the OP. Since you liked the Yamaha to begin with, I think the suggestions for valve alignment, etc. might help.
In addition, I would suggest working with the mouthpiece gap a bit. There were some long discussions about this, but many Yamaha trumpets are gap sensitive, and I remember Lou Finch concluding that narrowing the gap really helped. Several ways you can check this out without alterations to your horn.
1. Harrelson mouthpiece gap shims. Requires not alteration to any of your equipment but allows you to play with the gap. I did not find these to be a permanent solution, but great for testing things out.
https://www.whyharrelson.com/store/p267/Mouthpiece_Gap_Shims.html
2. Jim New's Gap Modulator. This requires you to send Jim a mouthpiece to fit with the modulator (I would buy a copy of your current mouthpiece and send it to him). This can actually be a permanent solution. I use one to adjust the gap on a couple of my horns.
http://james-r-new.com/accessories/gap-modulator-50.html

As others have stated, valve alignment, cleaning, etc. are all good to bring out the best in a horn.

I also switched from the nylon valve guides that come with Yamahas to metal ones on my 6335 and really liked the change, particular in the feedback I get playing.
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Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

[blbaumgarn]

Many great comments and advice/tips here. It reminded me of back in '74 when I bought this Benge 5x on a whim and decided I needed to play in the city band where I was living. I asked the director about playing, he directed me to a seat and after practice he said let's get together and play some duets and stuff before band practice. What progressed was him evaluating me, playing. Him evaluating the horn I bought because he wasn't familiar with Benge at the time, and him making professional suggestions to me. All of the little things I was figuring out on my own on the trumpet were enhanced and speeded up by having someone who was very competent listen and give me advice. By the time I met this fellow I had moved 900 miles away from my college teacher. Glen was a top notch h.s. director and a great player himself when young. Do all of the technical things that people suggest but have a very competent trumpet teacher listen to you with the proviso that you want to get better in certain areas and see if that doesn't help, too. Good LUck.
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"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush

[LittleRusty]

[delano]

It may be a little the same as finding the right wife. Some may play-test a ton, some will choose another strategy. Nobody can show you your way. But it will be there some day.

[OldSchoolEuph]

[royjohn]

I would agree with a lot of what's been posted already, esp. about valve alignment and gap. Fixing those makes a vast difference if they are off. I'd give some thought to the comment on how open your current horn is and perhaps try some that are not so open as an experiment.

I did not know "the way to San Jose" so I had to look at the map of CA. Your area has several music stores and you are also near a number of other towns. I'd view the search for a horn as a fun adventure. Go to some stores and try out some horns and keep notes. Maybe look at craigslist for other candidates. I looked at the SF area CL and saw several horns I would look at. Perhaps eventually take a trip to the LA area, too. Eventually I think some ideas will come to mind. Open vs not so open, big vs not so big, light vs heavy and so on. Barring a trip to NYC and Dillons, I think this will be your best bet. Eventually you'll find something you like or decide you like what you have best. Enjoy the journey!
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .