Those who play and enjoy vintage horns.....

[bulos]

Thought this might make an interesting group ..we will see. I will start off by inviting everyone to my website to see some vintage trumpets.
_________________
Marquis de Sade: "In art, one has to kill one's father."

[_dcstep]

Paul, you trying to start a fight or something? You march right in with a load of beautiful horns. You can't expect us to behave with anything other than envy, can you?

Personally I like to play new horns, BUT your collection is wonderful to look at. I'm sure there are a few "players" in there also. Keep them coming.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[ARB]

I recently had a chance to check out a Military Olds and boy that is one beautiful horn. The hand hammered craftsmanship on that horn is amazing.
_________________
Allen - 'Chops-in-Hotlanta'

00 Schilke S22
77 LA Benge 5X
63 Burbank Benge C

"It's what we think we know that keeps us from knowing"

[Tim80]

I tend to be drawn to vintage horns. But that is my personality. I tend to be attracted to older cars too. Well my wife just hit 40 so I guess I'm attracted to older women. Please excuse me while I duck and run!

Tim
(Just down to two LA Benges now)
_________________
All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets.
Voltaire

[WxJeff]

Yeah, I'm thinking Paul can host a South Florida trumpetfest all by himself, and we don't even need to bring our own horns

Seriously, Paul, you have blended two passions... trumpets and photography... into a wonderful venture.

Thanks for posting the images... is there such a thing as musical pornography???
_________________
Kanstul F Besson International 800 Bb
Jupiter SCR-520

[BADBOY-DON]

[bulos]

I appreciate all the nice words but what I am looking for is a discussion on how you guys perceive the playing characteristics of vintage horns you may have or may have tried. I was not always into this, actually I worked as a trumpet player for 35+ years and owned maybe 3 horns that entire time, this whole thing happened quite by accident in my search for a Mendez Olds like the one my dad bought me when I was a kid. Not all of these old horns play great but some of them are spectacular.
_________________
Marquis de Sade: "In art, one has to kill one's father."

[Lo]

Hi!
Beautiful horns. The one thing I love about vintage horns are its engravings or illustrations on the horns. Is there anyone that can do that on new horns? Or is it a vintage thing? Also are these actual engravings are illustrations? They look so great! I want to put one on my horn.

[trumpetmike]

That is a fantastic site, some true gems in there - love that 28B!

As for the discussion element, I have found that if you try and blow them like a modern trumpet they tend not to work too well, the sound can become muffled and the volume is definitely not up to the Bachs, Yamahas etc that we play nowadays. If I play them like an old instrument, with maybe a little less air and power, they respond magnificently. The tone is different to our modern instruments, not necessarily better or worse, but different.

If I am playing muci of the period I quite like playing it on the older instruments. Not just natural trumpets (and I mean real natural trumpets not those things with holes in) for the baroque stuff, but I have a couple of Hawkes & Son Clippertone trumpets that are absolutely superb for playing light operetta - Gilbert & Sullivan type stuff. Not only do they have the Bb/A rotary tuning (which saves transposing ) but they seem to fit in more easily with the rest of the orchestra, which tends to be on the smaller side.
Because I have two (for which I have paid the grand total of about £5) I frequently lend the other trumpeter my spare. It has been quite often that they have been reluctant to hand them back at the end of the week. They take so little effort to play and can produce a very sweet tone with relative ease.
I also find that they are excellent at softer playing which, when you are stuck in the pit with only a small band and chorus, can be very useful!

Seeing how pretty your site is, I really should get mine cleaned up properly. They currently look their age!

As well as the Clippertones I also have a Conn 18B (with Bb/A and C tunings).

How do you find the various tunings on your instruments?
I am always amazed at how well my trumpets play in tune, whatever key they are played in. When played in A the slides hardly need to be touched (maybe out a touch on 3rd) yet when in Bb the tuning is equally as good. They are also great on D and C#, even without an adjustable 3rd valve slide. Maybe the makers of yesteryear knew something?

[bulos]

[BADBOY-DON]

Interesting point you made about these old horns...

My posts give me away that I love open big bore horns, such as my old YTR-739 and my beloved Callet horns.

So each day that I get into the old Z car...I find myself stuck in traffic and I reach for the old Besson cornet and yes, there is SIZEABLE CONTRAST...for the first few notes and as much as I love my Callet and YTR, nothing touches my inner musical soul or lets me create what I want to hear....as this old cornet seems to allow me.

Tom Turner knows what I mean.....and expresses this inner feeling better than I can begin too? Whether its just because the bell and valve cluster is closer to my eyes and brain...along with the bell being also closer, or is it simply due to the flexiblity of the voicing.....I JUST SEEM VERY VERY OFTEN...TO ACTUALLY FORGET COMPLETELY, THAT I EVEN HAVE AN INSTRUMENT IN MY HAND...

I mearly just try to let my inner voice sing it through the horn. Again, As hard as I try....this little cornet just loves a personal one on one....but seems to seek its own path of resistence or musicality...and often this Besson has really sold me down the river, when I try to push this little critter into a pathway, it just doesn't want to go...and often, because of that, it never really seems to satify when I use it in performance situations, when I start to make DEMANDS ON IT.....(unless I stop fighting the horn, and just let it seek its own pathway in performance... such as:
mearly backing a singer from our choir...or simply let it be played, just for fun...during our recent noonday jams in the Boeing cafes over the Puget sound area.
Something almost magical seems can happen when I least expect it when playing this old Bessy.
This old beat up little Besson cornet just seems to enhance the mood of improv and call and recall...and seems to just love to be used as an emblessment horn or a compliment horn, or as and extention of my inner voice...whatever????
Does this make any sense????...PERHAPS NOT, the way this day is goin...
Pray for me.....I have not been quite right, since I slipped on the ice covered drive way this morn.....n' all that jazz? )))

Bottom Line: I just try to back off...and let the horn do the talkin' and let my mind sing what I want to sent to the leadpipe...(DID I SAY BONG-PIPE...JUST RAZZIN?

[ This Message was edited by: BADBOY-DON on 2004-01-02 15:23 ]

[_dcstep]

I had a 1916 Conn New Wonder cornet that played much like a modern horn and I used it that way a few times, but generally my other old horns (a Keefer cornet and a couple of other oddities) where hard to play in tune and sounded, well, "old." I enjoyed admiring them, but didn't like to play them for more than a few minutes.

One thing I like about my current Selmer Paris is the blending of the old-style valve casings and hand-hammered bell with a uniquely modern bracing method, yielding superior response. When you hold it, you see and feel its heritage, BUT it's still a very modern horn.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[cujazztrpt]

I play on a vintage Conn Connstellation (ca 1965) and its great! In fact I travelled around the world with it! For some reasons these older horns have this attitude to the sound. And yes sometimes the intonation can be funky but I think its well worth the effort working around it. I love vintage horns! Im getting another vintage committe this year.
_________________
Playing music is better than playing notes!
www.soundclick.com/cujazztrpt

[gustav]

Paul: the older horns have character, I can just see some one setting at a bench woring on these old horns. I have a Conn 2B 1948 and it plays like a dream. I can see The NBC radio orchestra and Toscanini with Harry Glantz or some of the other great player playing the total handbuilts of the yester years.
I also just aquired a 1935 French Besson Meha. These i believe have a 470 bore but it one of the easiest playing horn ever and built like a tank. Mine is 93xxx. So in my opinion the older horns were true Class.

[musiclifeline]

Paul,
I have a question... which of those are for sale?

[tom turner]

Hi Paul,

My love of vintage horns especially applies to the cornets . . . though I'm always fascinated in the different "wrap" trumpets of the past that weren't all F. Besson clones like today.

Today's trumpets mostly hover around the .460 bore size and the modern F. Besson wrap . . . with a few .464-.470 bore trumpets thrown in and very few Medium bore horns. However, in the past the bore sizes ran from bigger than .470 down to the .420 range (for Bb trumpets).

The trumpet "sound" 100 years ago was smaller, BRIGHTER and more edgy. Most of the horns seem to be the "peashooter" variety back then. Nasty sounding, IMHO.

The cornet "sound" 100 years ago was MELLOWER, and more buttery than today. Many of those cornets were in the .470-.485 bore sizes and sported french horn-like funnel mouthpieces with big throats.

THEN . . . Vincent Bach and others discovered a cornet-like wrapped trumpet that was shorter in overall length and with a bigger bore than the peashooters . . . the notorious early F. Besson trumpet. The Besson had a richer sound like a cornet but still cut well enough.

Around the same time, cornets became longer, louder and brighter . . . with increasingly more of them made with the "modern" .460 bore too. With their new trumpet-like cups, the new cornet mouthpieces in the new cornets made 'em virtually the same sounding as trumpets . . . until most people couldn't tell the difference.

VINTAGE HORN DIFFERENCES VS. TODAY'S

I guess the main difference would be the instrument's temperment in pitch throughout the registers.

A lot of older instruments did NOT have a way to kick out either the first or third valve slides . . . so the third valve slides tend to be a little longer and the overall pitch centers are a little different when using multiple valve combinations. With the old horns each pitch was close enough to being accurate that one could lip the low D and low Db down without using triggers . . . but also have to lip up the D# above those two notes. FRANKLY, I like this better than today's idea of having the D# "perfect" and forcing us to trigger the third valve slide on the low D and Db.

Another difference is workmanship. Many vintage horns were made using a lot of extra, more expensive ways of manufacture and workmanship. Today, most horn makers cut every corner they can. Additionally, the engravers employed by many of the fine old companies made instruments that were stunning works of art! Today this profession is virtually gone.

HIGH PITCH VS. LOW PITCH

Around the Civil War just about the only way to get an entire group to play in tune was to purchase instruments for the entire band from the same company! Then, around 1900 horns began to change from primarily high pitch horns to the virtually 1/2 step lower "low pitch" of A=440 hZ of today. If a collector fails to understand this and purchases a horn that doesn't have low pitch slides also he/she will be disappointed when trying to play in modern groups. From about 1900-1925 many instruments came with two sets of slides, since musicians of that day might be playing with guys with 30-40 year old, high-pitch instruments. Today, it's a moot point.

SOME THINGS NEVER CHANGE . . .

Lots and lots of the horns of yesteryear are truly forgettable "dogs," and play terrible. They did when new and they still do. 100 years ago was the peak of the brass band craze and zillions of companies made tons of instruments. In the past one could choose between the perfection of a Boston 3-Star, the very good York, the mediocrity of the Holton-Clarke, or some true dogs that bark in the night. You see 'em all on e-bay! There are still zillions of them yet to be discovered in Uncle Harry's attic too!

VINTAGE HORNS I'D LIKE TO OWN . . .

I've got a couple of nice 3-Stars and have finally found some modern instruments as awesome as the best of the past so I'm pretty happy. However, I must admit that I'd like to have a pristine Vocabell Conn in an upper grade of engraving and finish. I'm also a sucker for some of the other top brands in unique wraps.

AIN'T NOBODY GETTIN' RICH . . .

Except the vintage instrument restorer/technicians! All the instruments need SOME attention to play their best. For my 3-Star it mean a valve rebuild . . . for ALL it means a great valve alignment. Some have been abused and poorly repaired.

Frankly, my restored Boston 3-Star is just about as nice a cornet as anyone could possibly make . . . today or in the past. Doc Severenson plays the same mid-teens model of fixed leadpipe Boston that I have in concert! It's really cool to hold a gorgeous instrument in your hands that still makes beautiful music long after it's creators are dead and gone.

Sincerely,

Tom Turner

[bulos]

[bulos]

[quote]
On 2004-01-02 18:46, tom turner wrote:
Hi Paul,

My love of vintage horns especially applies to the cornets . . . though I'm always fascinated in the different "wrap" trumpets of the past that weren't all F. Besson clones like today.

The trumpet "sound" 100 years ago was smaller, BRIGHTER and more edgy. Most of the horns seem to be the "peashooter" variety back then. Nasty sounding, IMHO.

The cornet "sound" 100 years ago was MELLOWER, and more buttery than today.

the notorious early F. Besson trumpet. The Besson had a richer sound like a cornet but still cut well enough.

Around the same time, cornets became longer, louder and brighter
virtually the same sounding as trumpets . .


TOm

Good points. I was always told by teachers and others that trumpets were cylindrical bores and cornets were conical and that was the main difference. Once I got into collecting I noticed that few if any cornets were really conical any more then most trumpets, and, that some trumpets did not have a consistent bore through the valves section. Were not all cornets, trumpets, fluegels, etc. "conical" in the bell section anyway and how many horns have you seen were the bore increases gradually through-out the entire length of the instrument? So, my curiosity piqued, I once asked Robb Stewart to tell me the difference between a cornet and a trumpet, and he answered that really the most sigificant one is the mouthpiece. Robb enlightened me in his simple answer. Hell he is so right, I mean I can but a S or E cup in any "real" cornet and it will sound more "trumpet like" then a trumpet with a deep V cup mouthpiece with a large bore and open backbore. One of the cornets I have on my site is a pre-WWI Conn that looks like a trumpet (they had trumpet proportioned cornets way back then) and with the deeper of the 2 original mouthpiece tops it sounds almost like a fluegel.
_________________
Marquis de Sade: "In art, one has to kill one's father."

[tom turner]

Hi,

Yes, I have a nice 1939 Conn Victor 80A cornet, in the rare brown "professional" case that is actually brighter than my trumpet with the same Warburton top but screwed onto a short shank Warburton cornet shank!

Nick D. once offered me as much for the case, plus a black standard Conn case, as many 80As sell for . . . but I decided to keep the "kit" intact with its original Conn "Harry Glantz" artist-series mouthpiece, cleaning rod, mute, etc.

Like you, I've discovered that you can only play one at a time. I've thinned my collection out severely and gone are the vintage trumpets. I now only have two 1913 Boston 3-Stars (within 200 numbers of each other and both restored by Rich Ita), the '39 Conn and a 1961 Reynolds Argenta (all cornets of totally different designs).

Also, I have a unique vintage Olds TROMBONE in it's original Bach-like looking case. The case holds the bell section PLUS BOTH a conventional Olds trombone slide assembly AND VALVE TROMBONE assembly! It's a cool horn that can "swing both ways!"

I've learned (the hard way) not to by "fix-em-up horns or junk. If it ain't highly regarded and pristine . . . I'll pass on 'em!

At the Mobile HornFest last September (reported in the TH forums) I had a chance to play and inspect a 1927 Bach Strad. I mic'ed the bore at a measley .445 but it surely played and sounded nice. Sure, it was a little "tight" by modern standards . . . but I'd play that horn on a gig. A great horn . . . is a great horn!

Warmest regards,

Tom


[ This Message was edited by: tom turner on 2004-01-02 21:29 ]

[Trptbenge]

Paul,

I just picked up a 1946 Olds Super and a 1950 Olds Recording to go with my other Recording Trumpet. What a great set of trumpets to play. I always knew about the power and projection of the Recording but I was surprised at the projection of the Super. The valves on both horns are as smooth as glass. I love vinatage horns.

Mike