green corrosion!

[md-jones]

My son has been playing an old 80's Bach Strad in school for the last few years and recently has been complaining of sticking valves.
When I took them out to find out the problem, I found that most of the horn has that green corrosion in it, especially the third valve.
I know it needs a chemical flush, which I will do as soon as I can.
My question is: what can I use to clean it with at home until I can get it serviced?

[Albert Parrott]

Green could mean several things, but is most probably due to copper sulfate. A fairly safe thing to use on brass is dilute vinegar. Vinegar is a natural product that contains about 5% acetic acid, which is very mild and should not attack the metal of your horn. A gallon of cider vinegar, diluted with an equal volume of warm water will usually allow you to submerge your horn if you use a plastic tub or bin to hold it. Allow it to soak for a couple of hours, and then rinse and dry it thoroughly. Optionally, switch to warm water with with a mild dish detergent, such as Joy, and use a soft brush to snake through the tubing, followed by a rinse and dry.

[trpthrld]

Soak the valves in white vinegar. You can also use an SOS pad to lightly clean the valves.

You'll need to make sure you clean any SOS soap residue off the valves, especially the inside of the spring assembly.

Get a valve casing brush & clean the inside of the casings with white vinegar.

Clean the entire trumpet with liquid dish soap & warm water. That should take care of it until you can get the full chem flush.

BTW, IMO if you give your horn regular cleanings at home (liquid soap, brushes, warm water, etc) chem cleanings are unnecessary. I'm a very active pro player, and I clean my main horns maybe 3 or 4 times a year, more if I'm doing a lot of outdoor gigs.
_________________
Tim Wendt

www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=146827&s=The-Best-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-EVER--

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPWAJqghk24&feature=youtu.be

[etc-etc]

Copper (II) sulfate is quite soluble in water, so it cannot be the main component of the deposits. Rather, the green insoluble deposits are made up from copper (II) carbonate, which would react with vinegar, leading to formation of CO2 (gas) and water-soluble copper (II) acetate.

Chemistry aside, ultrasonic cleaning is a better way to go.

[trpthrld]

[etc-etc]

The problem with chemical cleaning, even with vinegar, is how to flush out the residual electrolyte (acid, base or dissociated salt) from all the nooks and crannies. This is further exacerbated in horns that have surface pitting and deposits accumulated in the pits. Any left-over electrolyte will promote new corrosion. Let us say one uses sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) to neutralize vinegar; then, it will be necessary to flush out the residual bicarbonate. In the end, you have to use plain water for that final flush-out of the residual electrolyte. This is, however, quite time-consuming (because of the exponential dilution in the closed areas).

Ultrasound cleaning is a better option, as no new chemical species (ions) are introduced. One needs only to flush out the suspension of the insoluble deposits in water. This is also an exponential dilution, but the presence of the remnants of the deposits is not nearly as harmful as that of the leftover electrolyte.

[hansonsf]

[Craig Swartz]

Tim, thank you for suggesting the light once-over with SOS pads. I use Flitz or Wenol to take the staining off of my Bach pistons but people here have always taken me to task, claiming it will wear down the piston. The pistons on my Schilke horns never experience the staining, same oil, same person playing, must be a different Monel somehow. Monel metal is much harder than the steel wool in the SOS pad, unless someone is a total jerk it won't harm the piston. One must be certain to clean the residue but since the pistons are removed and cleaned, it isn't a problem. Snake through the ports if you can't clean and flush. Incidentally, Ren Schilke showed me that cleaning the "cleaned pistons" with valve oil (always Al Cass back then) was about as good a solvent as one could find. I doubt he would've recommended the Flitz or Wenol, but the fact it does not remove gun bluing on fine doubles from the turn of the 20th Century (1900-1915 or so) is good enough for me.

For those who don't know, Flitz is a greyish paste cleaner that can be used on fine jewelry but also will remove light surface rust from some very fine old and very expensive firearms without harming the blued surface, again, provided one doesn't rub overly on the edges and corners. Wenol is similar but is more the pink color of jeweler's rouge. I usually rub either on the piston with my fingers, if not, a soft cotton cloth. Both will absolutely buff the corroded slide ferrules to almost new condition. Over the many years I've never noticed any adverse affect on my horns.

BTW- I also teach young-uns, have for 35 years or so. A lot of the green inside is due to the fact that some of those horns haven't been cleaned, ever. I love to run a brush through the lead-pipe of a 7th grader's trumpet and watch their expression when they see the sludge come out. They come back pretty often to clean their horns after that.

Good luck, everyone.

[trpthrld]

Providing that you can get it broke loose, I'll remove the 3rd valve bottom cap & have a student look in that (it's usually caked in mud), then have them stick their pinky up into & rub the inside of the valve casing & look at that.

Then I'll say "All that gook & other stuff? It's basically created by you. Now go clean your horn."
_________________
Tim Wendt

www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=146827&s=The-Best-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-EVER--

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPWAJqghk24&feature=youtu.be

[cwerickson]

[trpthrld]

yes yes yes yes yes.

been doing it for years when it's necessary and it works perfectly.
_________________
Tim Wendt

www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=146827&s=The-Best-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-EVER--

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPWAJqghk24&feature=youtu.be

[cwerickson]

It's one thing to do something yourself -- quite another to recommend it to others, say the jr. high kids who may be reading this post.

You do what you like -- but, as someone who builds trumpets, I'm saying that using steel wool on a piston is a really, really bad idea.

Best of luck!

Tina

[Treblehorn]

All very true and well stated. However, without an Ultrasonic tank large enough, or a tech that has one close enough, I would suggest it's easier and more efficient to remove the acid from the metal by dilution, than it would be the base. Them bases like to hang on real tight!

But, ultrasonic is the way to go.....

[trpthrld]

[Craig Swartz]

I have to stick with trpthrld on this. When someone works the monel or nickel plating of the piston alone, I believe it's difficult to damage or wear down the surface. A while back someone took me to task for recommending Flitz and Wenol, as well as DuPont No.7 auto finish (we're talking paint which you can scratch with your fingernail if you try) rubbing compound to remove staining. His evidence was that even toothpaste can be used as a lapping compound and removes surface. I would contend that the surface being altered would be the softer brass of the casing, not the much harder material of the piston. Both surfaces being monel or nickel, I doubt toothpaste would have any affect. In any event, I've had to fix many horns for students that simply would not work as long as the staining remained on the piston. My own Bach is another good example- if the pistons aren't reliable, I don't get to keep playing...

[cwerickson]

[trpthrld]

[Rhondo]

[Winghorn]

Reynold Schilke was so particular about the valves in his trumpets that in the little care booklet that came with his instruments, the new owner was advised to never rotate the valves in their casings!

Doc Severinsen told me in a telephone conversation after buying one of my Mt.Vernon Bachs that the cure for sticking valves was running the pistons in the casings with lava hand soap. He said they would never stick again.

Personally, I would never use steel wool on the valves of any of my trumpets.

[Man Of Constant Sorrow]