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What will be the "legendary" vintage horn of the f


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Letstalktrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:21 pm    Post subject: What will be the "legendary" vintage horn of the f Reply with quote

Hello all,

I have been looking through some of the archives on this forum and it has had me thinking. What do you all think will be the lusted after horn from this time period, 50-70 years from now?

A lot of people nowadays look for Martin Committees, Mt.Vernon/NY Bachs and Chicago Benges and they command premium prices for a variety of factors. People clutch their connstalations and olds recordings like they are made of gold and these horns also command strong prices.

In 80 years do you think people will be saying the same thing about the Yamaha Chicago or the Bach Artisan or any other horn you can go buy off the shelf today.

Conversely, what horns do you all think will not maintain their value as well? A good example of this are king 2b liberties and Super 20s. When new they cost the same as other contemporary horns like strads but now sell for 300-500 on ebay usually, though they are likely good playing horns, while a strad from that same build period sells for triple or quadruple that.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if Monette stops making trumpets after Dave M retires, those horns will be sought after in 50-70 years for sure. Same with Harrelson and other custom builders. As for the Bachs and Yamahas, I would imagine those companies will still be around making good horns and don't see how the ones from today will be any more special from what they will be building in the future.

Your question makes me reflect on the idea of like, how often are instruments destroyed or end up in a landfill (not as many as are being built) and how many instruments will be around in the future!
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blownchops
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
I think if Monette stops making trumpets after Dave M retires, those horns will be sought after in 50-70 years for sure. Same with Harrelson and other custom builders. As for the Bachs and Yamahas, I would imagine those companies will still be around making good horns and don't see how the ones from today will be any more special from what they will be building in the future.

Your question makes me reflect on the idea of like, how often are instruments destroyed or end up in a landfill (not as many as are being built) and how many instruments will be around in the future!


I do not know if Harrelson will be as remembered or desired as Monette. I find that the Harrelsons to be a somewhat niche market and I do not see huge masses of players trying to buy Harrelsons to fit a particular sound or ideal like they do for a bach mtv or a committee. I also couldnt tell you a single harrelson artist of off my head, but could for Monette, nor could I tell you anyone I know that has played a harrelson but could write lists of people on vintage bachs, martin committes, 38bs and so on.

Yamaha will likley be around and making good horns. Looking at their history however, they will have likely discontinued the whole xeno line and have a differing line of horns they sell. They started with the 3 number schilke copy horns, then the 6xxx series, now the Xeno and so on. Will people look at whatever they are selling in 2094 and say
"Man, these new yamahas are junk, those old xenos are where its at!" like they do with bachs.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blownchops wrote:
Jaw04 wrote:
I think if Monette stops making trumpets after Dave M retires, those horns will be sought after in 50-70 years for sure. Same with Harrelson and other custom builders. As for the Bachs and Yamahas, I would imagine those companies will still be around making good horns and don't see how the ones from today will be any more special from what they will be building in the future.

Your question makes me reflect on the idea of like, how often are instruments destroyed or end up in a landfill (not as many as are being built) and how many instruments will be around in the future!


I do not know if Harrelson will be as remembered or desired as Monette. I find that the Harrelsons to be a somewhat niche market and I do not see huge masses of players trying to buy Harrelsons to fit a particular sound or ideal like they do for a bach mtv or a committee. I also couldnt tell you a single harrelson artist of off my head, but could for Monette, nor could I tell you anyone I know that has played a harrelson but could write lists of people on vintage bachs, martin committes, 38bs and so on.

Yamaha will likley be around and making good horns. Looking at their history however, they will have likely discontinued the whole xeno line and have a differing line of horns they sell. They started with the 3 number schilke copy horns, then the 6xxx series, now the Xeno and so on. Will people look at whatever they are selling in 2094 and say
"Man, these new yamahas are junk, those old xenos are where its at!" like they do with bachs.
I can name a lot of people that play Harrelson trumpets, Arturo Sandoval from time to time, Jeremy Pelt, Leroy Jones, Jorge Vistel, Kermit Ruffins.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think there is any trumpet currently being made that will ever be lusted after at the level of the Martin Committee, Mt. Vernon/New York Bach Strad or the Chicago Benge.

Of the horns that are not currently being made I think Calicchio and Burbank Benge have the best chance of being considered to be in the same class as the Martin Committee, Mt. Vernon/New York Bach Strad and the Chicago Benge.

It's tempting to think that Monette might rise to that level but Monette makes so many models, some quite dissimilar from others, that I don't think any one model will stand out 50 - 70 years from now as a collectible "Holy Grail" horn at the level of a Martin Committee, Mt. Vernon/New York Bach Strad or Chicago Benge.

A lot of the mystique that makes a horn regarded as a "Holy Grail" horn has to do with who played the horn and/or how importantly the horn fits in with the history of the trumpet. The Martin Committee, Mt. Vernon/New York Bach Strad, Chicago Benge, Calicchio and Burbank Benge are all strong in one, the other or both categories.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most people collecting vintage horns are nostalgic for a specific era of music. We likely won't see another era of popular instrumental music like we did in the 20th century, so I don't see anything displacing the current staples (Martin Committee, NY Bach, Connstellation, etc.).

However, I think a few horns being made today will still be highly desired in the future. I'd bet that Doc's signature horns from Shires, Straub, and Ackright will be highly collectable in the future. Monette's will likely be just as sought after, as will the other boutique makers like Inderbinen and AR Resonance that your favorite pros use. For small manufactures like Monette, there isn't much room for the price to increase, so they'll likely just stay expensive forever.

There are so few of all of those horns that I just mentioned, that it might not be a "market" like there is for Martin Committees or old Bach Strads, but just a few dedicated collectors and enthusiasts.

In 100 years when all the yellow brass tubes on Bachs are rotted, people might collect the 190 series Bachs and Yamaha 9335's as good replicas of those original horns (if people are still interested in that sound).

Connstellations, Schilkes, Olds Recordings, and Selmer K-Mods are largely corrosion resistant, so those should be around for a while. I think Selmer Paris is underrated by the current collector market, so I'd bet on those to increase in value, both vintage and some of the newer horns like the Sigma and 80J. Early Elkhart Bachs will likely rise in price to that of late Mt. Vernon horns.

People might also start playing cornets more, in which case cornets from every major vintage brand would rise in value to that of their trumpet counterpart.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
I think Selmer Paris is underrated by the current collector market, so I'd bet on those to increase in value, both vintage and some of the newer horns like the Sigma and 80J. Early Elkhart Bachs will likely rise in price to that of late Mt. Vernon horns.

Should have bought an 80J when they were clearing out...
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Letstalktrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
Most people collecting vintage horns are nostalgic for a specific era of music. We likely won't see another era of popular instrumental music like we did in the 20th century, so I don't see anything displacing the current staples (Martin Committee, NY Bach, Connstellation, etc.).

However, I think a few horns being made today will still be highly desired in the future. I'd bet that Doc's signature horns from Shires, Straub, and Ackright will be highly collectable in the future. Monette's will likely be just as sought after, as will the other boutique makers like Inderbinen and AR Resonance that your favorite pros use. For small manufactures like Monette, there isn't much room for the price to increase, so they'll likely just stay expensive forever.

There are so few of all of those horns that I just mentioned, that it might not be a "market" like there is for Martin Committees or old Bach Strads, but just a few dedicated collectors and enthusiasts.

In 100 years when all the yellow brass tubes on Bachs are rotted, people might collect the 190 series Bachs and Yamaha 9335's as good replicas of those original horns (if people are still interested in that sound).

Connstellations, Schilkes, Olds Recordings, and Selmer K-Mods are largely corrosion resistant, so those should be around for a while. I think Selmer Paris is underrated by the current collector market, so I'd bet on those to increase in value, both vintage and some of the newer horns like the Sigma and 80J. Early Elkhart Bachs will likely rise in price to that of late Mt. Vernon horns.

People might also start playing cornets more, in which case cornets from every major vintage brand would rise in value to that of their trumpet counterpart.


I would agree with the Yamaha 9335CH as a future heavily desired horn. I picked mine out over some Mt. Vernons, the 9335Ny and a Chicago Benge. I imagine they will get discontinued sooner or later and the demand will rise or the different generations will be sought out, like a Burbank Benge vrs an LA benge.

I dont see the K-mod popping up in valve again without a shift to a differing style of playing becoming popular. I have always wanted to try an 80j or Sigma but have never had the opportunity. I also do not think the Olds recording will keep going up as I do not see younger players clamoring for them like the older generations do.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:

Should have bought an 80J when they were clearing out...


Yep. I've been trying to find a Sigma for the longest time.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Letstalktrumpet wrote:


I would agree with the Yamaha 9335CH as a future heavily desired horn. I picked mine out over some Mt. Vernons, the 9335Ny and a Chicago Benge. I imagine they will get discontinued sooner or later and the demand will rise or the different generations will be sought out, like a Burbank Benge vrs an LA benge.

I dont see the K-mod popping up in valve again without a shift to a differing style of playing becoming popular. I have always wanted to try an 80j or Sigma but have never had the opportunity. I also do not think the Olds recording will keep going up as I do not see younger players clamoring for them like the older generations do.


The thing with Yamaha is that they'll always put out something better. I don't know if the Chicago II series will be collectable when Generation 10 is out and you don't even need to practice to sound like Bud Herseth (kidding). The Yamaha Miyashiro seems to be a bit of a modern classic, commanding prices much higher than the Bergeron or Shew horns.

I think there's plenty of enthusiasm for Olds among younger collectors. High school kids aren't playing them, but I think most people who frequent trumpet-related forums hear about them. Trumpetmaster and photo bucket going down definitely resulted in a lot of great information Olds disappearing. The problem with Olds is that they don't have the celebrity provenance that Martin and Bach do. The Recording models will never get red rot, so they'll outlive most horns of that era.

The reason why I said Selmer Paris would increase in value is that they do in fact have the provenance, a beautiful sound, they play in tune, and they're incredibly well built. I'd take a Selmer K-Mod over a Martin Committee any day of the week.
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Robert1
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting topic. Regarding Monette Trumpets, I was thinking that the early, standard weight, more "conventional-style" Bb models from the 1980s might develop a cult following in the future. Those were great trumpets, and I can see that the Jazz players might covet those. I had a nice one. Wish that I didn't have to sell it, back in 2014.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert1 wrote:
Interesting topic. Regarding Monette Trumpets, I was thinking that the early, standard weight, more "conventional-style" Bb models from the 1980s might develop a cult following in the future. Those were great trumpets, and I can see that the Jazz players might covet those. I had a nice one. Wish that I didn't have to sell it, back in 2014.


Those early Monette trumpets will probably age more gracefully than Dave's early 2000's trumpets, which already look incredibly dated when put next to a new Monette.
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giakara
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I save for my son a like new recently silver plated Lawler TL6-1A from the best period of Lawler trumpets in mint condition, I guess that in 30 years it will be very collective.

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tptptp
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have two Blackburn Bb trumpets which both play and sound great, and are in great shape. They are conventional-looking horns, of course. Not a huge number of Blackburns have been made.
So, when someone finds one of mine in 50 years, they will have found a rare gem, and it may cost them a lot if the brand and reputation are still talked about a lot.
So if the formula is rarity+quality+condition+"hype" these horns will be valued.
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blownchops
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tptptp wrote:
I have two Blackburn Bb trumpets which both play and sound great, and are in great shape. They are conventional-looking horns, of course. Not a huge number of Blackburns have been made.
So, when someone finds one of mine in 50 years, they will have found a rare gem, and it may cost them a lot if the brand and reputation are still talked about a lot.
So if the formula is rarity+quality+condition+"hype" these horns will be valued.



Blackburn makes perfect sense to be highly desired in the future.
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hibidogrulez
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tough to say...likely its either a custom brand with a limited supply like Harrelson or Monette, something high quality like a particular line of Bach/Getzen/Yamaha, or something exotic like the Phat Boy or the Puje that are unlikely to be remade.

Can’t really comment on it as I play vintage already...in case of Olds for example, its a combination of quality and ‘slightly exotic’, but still attainable. That seems to apply to Bach strads too...so maybe that’s it? Attainable, reasonably affordable and high quality?
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert1 wrote:
Interesting topic. Regarding Monette Trumpets, I was thinking that the early, standard weight, more "conventional-style" Bb models from the 1980s might develop a cult following in the future. Those were great trumpets, and I can see that the Jazz players might covet those. I had a nice one. Wish that I didn't have to sell it, back in 2014.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, I don't think there will be one. Hear me out.

Look at the classic car market. In the early to mid 90's every car show was full of 60's and early 70's muscle cars. They were the sought after "classic" cars. That was 30 some years removed from their production. Look at a "classic" car show today. Still dominated by those same 60's and 70's cars. We are 30 years out from the early 90's and yet, for the most part, the time period of what is a classic collector car has not shifted. Sure there are some, but they are not the standard. Collectors today do not look at a 1969 Camaro like collectors in the 90's looked at Model T's.

For the most part, anything that is deemed collectable and has a romanticism attached to it holds on to that despite the passage of time. If anything, the draw gets stronger as time passes.

This isn't to say modern trumpets aren't worthy of the attention vintage models have today. There is just a different, emotional response to them. Does that make sense?
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Croquethed
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting observation, Brett.

I was watching Trent Austin's YouTube demo of the X-13 and asked him if he thought the horn may become the vintage sought-after "Committee" of 2070.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't get me wrong. I hope they do. I'm more than willing to stock a few dozen away now and cash in on that sweet collector's money when I'm retired, but I don't think it will happen that way.

Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows? Someday, maybe a yet to be born trumpet player will love to have a horn that was actually made by a person in the real world rather than something digitized in the matrix.
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