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Stevens & Costello cf Earl D Irons


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SteveDurand
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Location: Orange County, California

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:


I’m not sure how exactly this relates but it is something i notice. Shew gave me an exercise where i tongue thru teeth to build strength (his words) and muscle memory (that’s my thought). One thing I have noticed as I was able to get good staccato at g above staff when doing this was that higher notes i had became easier and were crisper. I can now do it to hi c pretty easily.

This relates to the tongue question. When I try to hit notes I’m not yet comfortable with it helps to use this tongue thru teeth and pop my lip with the sudden air pressure. This leads me to think (sometimes troublesome) that tongue can help when you can get by with this in the musical setting. I can pop low c, middle, high, and hit (not use) a double when using the tongue thru teeth, but can only play a good continuous scale to hi g. Does this have any usefulness in training emb.?
Rod


Rod,
I have always tongued through my teeth with the tip of my tongue hitting my lips. A couple of times I have tried to transition to dorsal tonguing but I was never satisfied with the results. It lacked crispness. Maybe the pop that you describe.

However, I don't really think it did anything to help my range. I was topped out at the D above high C for 45 years.

Steve
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now you stated in circular breathing the lungs are disconnected from the oral capacity....in which direction does the oral pressure go now? To the opening, the aperture? Is the air pressure in the oral capacity higher or lower than in the lungs in this situation?


When circular breathing, and playing from the oral space pressure only, The static pressure produced by the oral "squeeze" of the air acts equally on all points of the boundary of the enclosed pressure space.

Likewise, when playing normally from lung pressure, the lung pressure is what bears on ALL boundaries. Including any exposed oral space.

However, if the path is sufficiently narrowed between the lungs and the aperture due to some tongue or throat obstruction, and air is flowing, then there are viscous losses of pressure energy and there will be LESS than lung air pressure acting on the boundary where the aperture is located.

The tongue position, when playing from lung air pressure does NOT "compress" the air. That is, it does not increase the air pressure bearing on the aperture.

If you see any YouTube videos called: "The Three Compressions", be assured that these players are not knowledgeable of the mechanics of air.

Quote:
Is the air pressure in the oral capacity higher or lower than in the lungs in this situation?


The pressure depends on the action effort. But the maximum oral-only pressure can easily exceed the maximum lung pressure. However, the oral space can not sustain but a very small duration of flow. Obviously the lungs are FAR superior in that regard.
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shakuhachi
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:41 am    Post subject: only one answer Reply with quote

Hi Derryl,

I am not a damd good trumpet player and struggled a lot in trumpet playing while playing good in flute and guitar.

I have had two break throughs in trumpet:

1. playing with totaly relaxed lips as seen by Maynard Ferguson and told by Lynn Nicholson and also by Jim Manlay: shallow, convex mouthpieces, best convex
2. opposite I used the approach of Jerome Callet and his mouthpieces using the tongue as channel the tip between the teeth against the bottom lip and closing the rim of the upper tongue all against the top to the upper molars.

Saying that all I am not interested in physical analysis at all even I am a 40 years experienced analyst in software engenneering and of course a logic thinking human.

But I know the bounderies of logic and I know the snares of psychological issues very well.

What we need are models of reality to manage realitiy for sure - but we should not take models as reality by itself.

Nature needs respect and not knowledge at the end - it will laugh at our knowledge at the end - think of me when your passing away some day....as we all will do!

If you are looking for the unified trumpet theorie as physics are looking to unify relativity and quantum physics - go ahead.

I don‘t need it neither in trumpet playing nor in life.

So please stay relaxed - thoughts of mind are always fighting against each other but not winning against life at the end.

best

Reiner
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trumpetteacher1
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
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Location: Garland, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
No tongue thru teeth and lip like spitting a seed. Rod


Did you you read the entire BE book? Maybe you just read parts?

Look at pages 17-18, and 123. These are core BE concepts.

I do not use the term "tongue between the teeth." It is too vague and gives the reader the wrong impression. The term "tonguing on the lips" is more specific, and correctly reflects the old-timer's recommendation of tonguing as if you are "spitting out a seed."

In the BE book, I present this technique as a means to an end, but it can also be used for everyday playing.

Jeff
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trumpetteacher1
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveDurand wrote:
Rod Haney wrote:


I’m not sure how exactly this relates but it is something i notice. Shew gave me an exercise where i tongue thru teeth to build strength (his words) and muscle memory (that’s my thought). One thing I have noticed as I was able to get good staccato at g above staff when doing this was that higher notes i had became easier and were crisper. I can now do it to hi c pretty easily.

This relates to the tongue question. When I try to hit notes I’m not yet comfortable with it helps to use this tongue thru teeth and pop my lip with the sudden air pressure. This leads me to think (sometimes troublesome) that tongue can help when you can get by with this in the musical setting. I can pop low c, middle, high, and hit (not use) a double when using the tongue thru teeth, but can only play a good continuous scale to hi g. Does this have any usefulness in training emb.?
Rod


Rod,
I have always tongued through my teeth with the tip of my tongue hitting my lips. A couple of times I have tried to transition to dorsal tonguing but I was never satisfied with the results. It lacked crispness. Maybe the pop that you describe.

However, I don't really think it did anything to help my range. I was topped out at the D above high C for 45 years.

Steve


Actually, Steve, I think that it did help your range. It just didn't help your extreme range.

If you had learned the BE roll in and roll out exercises, I think that you would have arrived at the same point as you are now, but the transition between registers would likely now be more fluid and easier.

Speculation on my part, of course, but based on many years of working with players with similar issues.

In the past, I have had middle school kids pull out their horn and start on a high C. When properly trained, it is pretty easy for them to do, but it fries the brains of many band directors.

Jeff
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Rod Haney wrote:
No tongue thru teeth and lip like spitting a seed. Rod


Did you you read the entire BE book? Maybe you just read parts?

Look at pages 17-18, and 123. These are core BE concepts.

I do not use the term "tongue between the teeth." It is too vague and gives the reader the wrong impression. The term "tonguing on the lips" is more specific, and correctly reflects the old-timer's recommendation of tonguing as if you are "spitting out a seed."

In the BE book, I present this technique as a means to an end, but it can also be used for everyday playing.

Jeff


Actually Jeff the specific recommendation was made to me by Bobby Shew and primarily was given to strengthen the muscles in the face in times you weren’t with the trumpet or MP. Free buzzing to tunes was also mentioned when you werent on the horn. I tried and at first got really tired and almost cramped but as I continued (i dont like wasted time unless I mean to waste it) I drive and bike 2-3 hours a day and I try to use tome of that time to spit seeds and free buzz with the radio. Amazingly I can get close to notes I’m trying to buzz and my emb. Seems to get stronger. Thru teeth and Lips is what I should have said earlier. Much easier to land on note just touching lips, thru lips requires better initial accuracy and control for me. Bobby said he started buzzing and spitting at age 12 or so. I think I heard him buzz a good hi G on skype once.

I got a lot out of your book as far as ways to experiment and lead myself to a more productive approach, if approached with an open and thoughtful approach you discover many things you may never have found using exercises of the mainstream methods. I simply got tired of beating my head with same old stuff and not seeing results. Your book and comments and some blind faith (which I try to get t with anything new till I feel it doesn’t work for me) allowed me to open up to new ideas and less traditional methods. Bobby explained the science of how the instrument worked and advanced some ideas and goals to get to higher register. Explained them in a way I understood (layman) why I was trying to do it, and of course positive results reinforce positive action. Then your books gave me ways to explore and learn. I am now sure that my initial setup and some bad habits learned have limited me. Almost all the pro players I taken lessons from (exception of your book and Bobby) have more or less landed on one specific thing they did to achieve their soaring range. I believe many of them teach the capstone that gave them their edge to soar. I think people forget how many other things they had absolutely before they found this. I took lessons with a very good hi note guy that taught that compression from the belly and back were key. I used his teaching for a year and was able to play a very good and in tune scale from low G to hi F. But more practice simply didnt take it farther. I just bought the Stevens Costello triple hi C book and have read thru once. To me this book is all about eliminating roadblocks to achieving your own limits. If the book is correct (open mind assume it is) I have some subtle changes to eliminate some roadblocks. I think understanding that working with the physical laws (his word not mine) makes a lot of sense. I discovered that my teeth were too open to fit his model and noticed immediate improvement when I set them as specified. Bobby also mentioned that correct usage of jaw was key to range. Most of the correction will be subtle, but I like the thought that I will not be limiting potential by the 1st thing I do when I pick up the trumpet. I’m not saying I will ever get unlimited range but I’m willing to suspend disbelief until I give a good shot. After getting initial setup in adjustment I see your book as the perfect adjunct to explore within this good setup. I think anytime someone go’s to the extreme in exploring a subject I’m intensely interested in you should see what they have to say. The guys who use these principals and are known certainly excellent command of the octaves.
Sorry for droning on,
Rod
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eliot wrote:
razeontherock wrote:
As I understand it, SC requires an upstream setting. I don't have one of those.

What is your experience with tongue arch?


Up stream embouchure setting? Yes they do.
As I understand it, while they don't condemn the downstream embouchure they seem to concede that one will never hit the limits they suggest are possible with downstream setting.

For me to achieve a definite upstream setting I am compelled to extend the lower jaw bone into a very unnatural more forward location (as they recommend) than is comfortable to achieve the "parallel" location of upper and lower teeth.

Tongue arch? I reckon it works ...
My physics and chemistry lessons 55 years or so ago taught me about Boyles law which links pressure and volume, they being inversely proportional with constant temperature.

That suggests to me that if the buccal cavity (volume) as a closed system, is reduced by arching the tongue (and not permitting any air pockets in the cheeks or lips to occur), then the pressure within the cavity is increased.

My intuition suggests that with a constant stream of air (as there supposedly is when blowing through the lips aperture for a specific note), if the pressure is increased either by additional volume of air being loaded into the (constant volume) mouth cavity by the lungs and diaphragm, or by raising the tongue, then the air expelled through the lips will be at a greater pressure (speed?) to vibrate the lips at a higher frequency.

Did arching the tongue work for me? Yes!
But note, I am of the impression that there can be subtle movements of the tongue that can essentially go unnoticed by the player, achieving the same effect as a conscious movement of the tongue.

The above is my experience thus far. It could change as I (hopefully) progress with my enjoyment of these ridiculously simple, yet at the same time complex, and complex to play, instruments.

Just a word of caution:
I am not a music teacher though I have progressed, years ago, through various Australian Music Examination Board grades to reach a certain proficiency (definitely not professional) in pianoforte playing. Neither am I qualified in any of the sciences, or mathematics. I do have, though, a couple of post graduate Masters degrees in business, but they have absolutely no relationship to playing trumpet. The research methods and case study analysis has, though, helped in my analysis of much written work.


Over a month later and I'm just now checking in, but you present some interesting stuff. Before trying to pick your brains it will help to know what I've been exposed to, which is easiest to explain via major teaching influences:

1) I started in Claude Gordon's Systematic Approach. Instant success, but progress slowed after about 3 years, then stopped.

2) Bill Adam, very much "forget about how you're doing it and focus on WHAT you're doing" i.e. SOUND. Didn't progress but I was able to play at or near my best consistently - which counts.

3) Almost 20 years later Jerry Callet, discussed here with much confusion, easily explained by his many different approaches.

4) Doc Rheinhardt. All about mechanics. Identified upstream types as being able to play higher than anybody else, by an octave or more in many cases. Finally figured out my "tongue type" via a Rheinhardt teacher, Dave Sheetz. Was finally able to progress for the first time since I was 12.

So I've found tongue is EXTREMELY important! So is jaw position.

I participated in the "Mohan / Kalijah wars" here, and drew my own conclusions about tongue level:

Kalijah is right that tongue movement or position will not increase air pressure on it's own, but that's a rather silly point. Air pressure isn't greater in one part of the system than another, and will never be greater than what you generate by the blowing muscles. Yet the operative factor is TOTAL WORK. When we play well, what tires is the whole body, i.e. the blowing muscles; at least if we're playing demanding lead charts. So tongue arch (or "channeling," as Pops refined the term) can reduce, aim, and otherwise control the airstream such that:

1) Less work is necessary for the blowing muscles because you're closer to maintaining air pressure on a closed system in your lungs. Also, we can play with a (relatively) stable amount of air pressure in our lungs, controlling all that with our tongue. LOTS easier!

2) less work is necessary by lips because they aren't creating much resistance, most of that was already created and channeled by the tongue before the air ever got to the lips.

John Mohan is right in that all this needs to be coordinated, and that only develops via consistent practice. The extra exertion by the blowing muscles to ascend is tiny compared to developing tongue arch, not only for max range but also accuracy throughout all registers. So it makes sense to focus on "tongue arch" in practice, especially if you're doing off the horn exercises to develop wind power and control like Claude Gordon's 10 walking.

What do you think about any of this?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
...
What do you think about any of this?

-------------------------
I think you should try developing high internal oral cavity air pressure using only the resistance from tongue arch - force your lips to not form an aperture and have them remain open.

I agree that tongue arch can be very useful for many players, use it when it helps. For purposes of 'playing', getting too deep into 'how it works' can result in wasting time on something that doesn't matter.
For a scholarly explanation of the physics and physiology of tongue arch, the precise details can be examined and discussed - but that a different environment than playing.
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