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penstir New Member
Joined: 27 May 2020 Posts: 8 Location: sydney
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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:19 pm Post subject: How to be heard with foldback in a group with 2 guitars.. |
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Hi, thanks for your help, I endlessly struggle to hear myself with invariably poor foldback and less than aware engineers in a group with 2 gfuitarists that like their amps loud, its driving me mad, I have tried just standing in front of the bass which helps but now they want to move and amp over to this side of the stage, Im ready to quit really, help!!! |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12699 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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In ear monitors? |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1037 Location: Europe
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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: How to be heard with foldback in a group with 2 guitars. |
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penstir wrote: | Im ready to quit really, help!!! |
Do so. If the guitar players can't be bothered to turn down their volume so others can be heard, they apparently don't care whether you're there or not. Life's too short to waste your hearing on people (I don't consider such people musicians) that can only think in terms of loudness. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mpc |
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penstir New Member
Joined: 27 May 2020 Posts: 8 Location: sydney
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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks both, ok Ill try in ear monitor... ill investigate, and yes, its depressing if the guitarists arent listening!!!!!!.. I now tend to avoid all guitarists with playing with people ... |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12699 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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One other tip from the more experienced end of life.
Wear ear protection. Especially if you are playing in a group loud enough you can’t hear a trumpet. |
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penstir New Member
Joined: 27 May 2020 Posts: 8 Location: sydney
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Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks little rusty, Penny xx |
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Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 526 Location: Toronto
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1966
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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 7:54 am Post subject: Hearing issues |
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The gigs I've been on where electronics are the main noise, I've found two ways to deal with it...ear plugs (which are a drag to play with) or pack up and leave the others to enjoy themselves. The majority of "sound men" in control of our product these days are most often stage hands. Their idea of music is 15 mikes on the drums, always too much bass, guitars over all the few horns and a 30 second sound check on the horns (if that). I did a Four Tops gig a while ago with 30 minutes spent setting levels on the plexiglass encaged drummer, another 15 minutes on the amplified instruments and a total of 30 seconds on the trumpets. Ear plugs were in my ears and as I sat on the end next to the multi miked drummer in his cage, the sound level was still oppressive.
I'm quite content these days to be one of the older cats here in Las Vegas who never gets a call for this crap.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8939 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Divitt Trumpets wrote: | Ear plugs and a TC Helicon voicesolo fx150 attached to your mic stand.
Saved my giggin and my sanity. |
I'm intrigued but it looks like this particular solution is no longer available (so says Sweetwater.com). _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Trumpjerele Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2019 Posts: 188 Location: Spain
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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:07 am Post subject: |
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I have tinnitus and use earplugs often.
LittleRusty's advice is excellent.
I have found that with earplugs you cannot appreciate the tone of the trumpet, but it is impossible not to hear it, no matter how much outside noise there is. _________________ Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies
Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4
Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9151 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:58 am Post subject: |
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If in-ear monitors and self-regulating balance/volume-control, a reliable sound man, and "rhythm" players who can't play responsibly can't do it, I'm gone. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Selmer K-Modified Light Trumpet (for sale)
Benge 3X Cornet |
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Klastos Regular Member
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 Posts: 51
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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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The only thing I have found to work is a mic on a stand (instead of a clip-on) with a plexiglas reflector mounted around it. Using earplugs with this setup makes for an unpleasant, but functional gigging experience. I usually need to pull out at least one earplug during solos, though.
Guitar players often have their amps pointed at their knees, which makes them need to turn up way beyond reason. That presents a challenge for the sound engineer, who can only turn signals up beyond what's already on stage, not down. It becomes an arms race, and to put the trumpet signal in the monitor wedge at a level balanced to the wall of sound coming from on-stage instrument amps becomes unreasonable. The on-stage sound is not only brutal to the performers (at least, for those who can still hear), but detrimental to what the audience gets out front.
If you have any control over what other people are doing on stage, request that the guitarists tilt their amps back to point at their ears, instead of their knees. And, if you have multiple monitor mixes, ask for the bare minimum of what you need to stay connected to the band to be sent to your wedge. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12699 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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Klastos wrote: | The only thing I have found to work is a mic on a stand (instead of a clip-on) with a plexiglas reflector mounted around it. Using earplugs with this setup makes for an unpleasant, but functional gigging experience. I usually need to pull out at least one earplug during solos, though.
Guitar players often have their amps pointed at their knees, which makes them need to turn up way beyond reason. That presents a challenge for the sound engineer, who can only turn signals up beyond what's already on stage, not down. It becomes an arms race, and to put the trumpet signal in the monitor wedge at a level balanced to the wall of sound coming from on-stage instrument amps becomes unreasonable. The on-stage sound is not only brutal to the performers (at least, for those who can still hear), but detrimental to what the audience gets out front.
If you have any control over what other people are doing on stage, request that the guitarists tilt their amps back to point at their ears, instead of their knees. And, if you have multiple monitor mixes, ask for the bare minimum of what you need to stay connected to the band to be sent to your wedge. |
There is also the longer term arms race where, as the guitarist and drummer lose their hearing, they feel the need to pump up their volume to the levels they are used to but cannot hear anymore.
Re tinnitus. I suffer from tinnitus in both ears and wish I had taken better care to protect my hearing.
However, based on human nature, I expect the ear protection advice to fall on deaf ears. Figuratively and literally. |
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penstir New Member
Joined: 27 May 2020 Posts: 8 Location: sydney
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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:39 pm Post subject: sound advice! |
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geee, thanks for the advice from all of you, so appreciated! I have a plexiglass reflector, yes it sounds bad, but the idea of the ear protectors protecting my ears but also help me hearing through the head? wow thanks,
the idea of an arms race... hilarious and true, and yes one of the guitarists is a bit deaf ... so thanks again! |
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penstir New Member
Joined: 27 May 2020 Posts: 8 Location: sydney
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Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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im also investigating the voicesolo fx 150, and other in ear monitors, and am choosier too with whom i play... i find guitarists are the hardest
and I might investigate a short course in live sound to be able to explain exactly what i need to the engineer... ( one once told me I would break his mic if I played into it... )) ) |
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djpearlman Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2002 Posts: 461 Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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I use a clip on mic into a small amp which I put right next too me on the floor to use as a personal monitor. I can match my own loudness (in my ears) to the band, but the amp is not so loud as to interfere with the other instruments. If my mic needs to go into a house PA, I have the sound man use the direc
t out from my monitor-amp. _________________ Dan Pearlman
Santa Fe, NM
- Monette Cornette
- Andalusia Cornet
- Carolbrass Pocket Trumpet
- Monette mouthpieces
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5NafoVeXrsRm-fOhKaIpnA |
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penstir New Member
Joined: 27 May 2020 Posts: 8 Location: sydney
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:51 am Post subject: |
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thanks djpearlman |
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Cizu New Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2022 Posts: 1 Location: Tuscon
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:49 am Post subject: |
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Always wear ear protection _________________ You’ll crawl before you walk! |
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penstir New Member
Joined: 27 May 2020 Posts: 8 Location: sydney
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Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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thanks Cizu |
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mike ansberry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1608 Location: Clarksville, Tn
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Posted: Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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I bought a Rolls personal monitor mixer. I use a pair of Bose 215 earbuds with it. I run my mic into the proper input and the monitor mix into the proper input. If the sound guy doesn't want to send you a monitor mix you can tap into a monitor wIth a Head Tap. The Rolls allows you to mix your sound with the monitor sound to achieve a balance you like.
You can find these at Sweetwater _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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