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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:48 am Post subject: Long tones - is there a technique? |
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YES, I know that practice is essential - but I would like to know if there is some aspect of technique involved that is different from playing 'moving notes'.
Specifically that short transition interval from initial sounding of the note, to holding the note for several beats.
What I am currently most curious about is if there is a change in how mouthpiece pressure is distributed between the upper and lower lips. And if there is any jaw change. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:42 am Post subject: |
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These days I'm more into focusing on sustaining the proper apparatus in my chops while playing sustained notes than anything else. The crucial thing that I've learned from an embouchure change that I started 16 months ago is that a developing trumpet player's chops need to grow in resonance. And only time + practice & perseverance can develop this resonance.
Resonance being a concept connected to various aspects of tone production. Such as sound, volume, endurance, and of course range. I didn't have much resonance back in Nov of '19. So just sustaining a long tone more than six beats back then was difficult. But of course, today it is much easier and I practice not only long tones but numerous repetitions of the recommended passages in the Clarke Technical Studies. In fact Jay, here's another suggestion,
Herbert L Clarke did not promote long tones much. His method involved playing numerous technical passages on a single breath but generally at a PP volume. I am not as stiff in insisting not to play sustained tones. As I've found long tones helpful. Soft playing, I might add is also a good idea when blowing long tones. When I do use long tones it is often done mostly just to correct an embouchure positioning situation. Asking myself,
''Do I have enough ''roll-in'' on my chops''?
This so as to allow my embouchure to bring any middle register tone that I'm playing at a given time all the way up (in an ascending scale or arpeggio) to the very top of my register. Such as around DHC or higher. Because if the note I'm playing at a certain time can not be taken way up to the extreme upper register? Then this means that I'm doing something wrong. I try to place the positioning and use of my embouchure as my primary focus of concentration during sustained tone production. It is this prioritization of the CORRECT embouchure function that has helped turn around my whole career. I'd no sooner just blindly sustain a bunch of tones without thinking & analyzing what I'm doing than I would to not wear an overcoat in cold weather. Or a seatbelt while in a car. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:59 am Post subject: |
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Lionel wrote: | ... I try to place the positioning and use of my embouchure as my primary focus of concentration during sustained tone production. It is this prioritization of the CORRECT embouchure function that has helped turn around my whole career. ... |
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Do you notice a difference in your embouchure between playing moving notes and sustained ones? Do you have to make any 'embouchure tweaks' to achieve your desired 'sustained note' setting? _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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krell1960 Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2020 Posts: 148
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:15 am Post subject: |
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I've always approached Clarke's Technical Studies as long tone studies, fingers just happen to be moving. I find that the notes are more connected.
sorry, realize that's off topic a bit. |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1472 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:59 am Post subject: |
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I´ve found that playing longer notes one aspect of the embouchure comes to the fore: how to keep the aperture stay in the right position. It´s all too easy to relax thereby almost subconsciously going towards a smiling embouchure.
Keeping the tongue à la whistling is one way of avoiding this.
At least this is good for me! _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Seymor B Fudd wrote: | ...
Keeping the tongue à la whistling is one way of avoiding this. ... |
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Thanks for the idea. Premature 'relaxing' of embouchure control might be an issue for me. It might be a need to continue 'follow-through' of the initial note sounding 'control' for the complete duration of a sustained note.
Do any of our experienced teachers notice a problem like that in some students? If yes, what method do you use to teach/correct it. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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drboogenbroom Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Apr 2004 Posts: 697
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Do any of our experienced teachers notice a problem like that in some students? If yes, what method do you use to teach/correct it. |
All the time. The first thing we try to do is get them to stop obsessing over the minutiae of what they imagine they feel and get their focus on either the audiation or timing.
If they have pretty good audiation, typically bringing attention to the end of the note is enough to fix the problem. I find most people who struggle with this do not actively imagine how they want the end of the note to sound with any detail.
If their audiation is weak or they need a little boost, we shift the focus to the timing and apply Caruso's 4 rules.
Kevin _________________ By concentrating on precision, one arrives at technique, but by concentrating on technique one does not arrive at precision.
Bruno Walter |
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lakejw Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 543 Location: Brooklyn, New York
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Yes there is a technique. But, more importantly, there are goals you should be striving for to reinforce the proper technique.
Does the note respond evenly and without a sudden jolt? Does the pitch remain stable? Is the air stream consistent and free from variations in volume or tone quality? Is the embouchure relaxed, yet stable? Is your posture free from tension in the shoulders and upper back? Is your core & diaphragm properly engaged throughout the process? Etc.
These are some things to keep in mind while practicing long tones. If you listen critically and really focus your attention on these aspects, good technique will follow. _________________ New Album "ensemble | in situ" on Bandcamp
johnlakejazz.com |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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lakejw wrote: | Yes there is a technique. But, more importantly, there are goals you should be striving for to reinforce the proper technique.
...
These are some things to keep in mind while practicing long tones. If you listen critically and really focus your attention on these aspects, good technique will follow. |
----------------------------------------------------
Background info - I recorded an excerpt and was surprised and disappointed by the unsteady sound of sustained notes - variation in both pitch and volume.
I then did some long tone practice and noticed that on sustained notes, the feel of the mouthpiece pressure on my lips was wavering (and some jaw wavering). I try to not use excessive pressure on my upper lip, but it seemed that if I slightly increased the upper lip pressure that the 'wavering' was significantly reduced.
More practice with concentration on maintaining embouchure control (no easing-off or relaxing) is showing benefits. I realize that my basic 'muscle control' probably needs more training. If there is an aspect of 'technique' that I don't know about, I'd like to learn what it is.
I will be devoting much more practice time to long tones - I didn't appreciate their value, and the important function they serve. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | Lionel wrote: | ... I try to place the positioning and use of my embouchure as my primary focus of concentration during sustained tone production. It is this prioritization of the CORRECT embouchure function that has helped turn around my whole career. ... |
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Do you notice a difference in your embouchure between playing moving notes and sustained ones? Do you have to make any 'embouchure tweaks' to achieve your desired 'sustained note' setting? |
That's a good question. I prefer slower notes (another word for 'long tones') to help develop my focus. The key to what I'm doing presently is to keep plenty of roll in my chops. Now as you've noticed, this roll will tend to relax/disintegrate as I play moving lines. This is because moving lines take more out of a new embouchure. That and I also tend to 'go flabby' when playing moving lines. Or playing music in general. Perhaps I should explain.
As a musician I want to keep a steady, in tune musical tone. And the easiest way to do this is to play lower tones on a flabby set of chops. But there's a Big Problem here when this becomes habitual. Because while a firm, well rolled-in set of chops will eventually develop in ''intelligence'' and learn to play all of the lower register tones? Unfortunately, the reverse is not usually true. If I'm well rolled-in while playing say a second line G natural? I can usually ascend from this tone to well over two octaves higher.
And yet if I've set on a 'flabby' embouchure? There's almost no way in Hell that I'll be able to pull off such a dynamic register shift. The interesting thing about learning to adopt some roll-in in my embouchure is that I originally learned of this concept by my first Classical trumpet teacher*. You'd probably think that such a concept would more likely be espoused by a 'Jazzer' type teacher but this was not to be. My prof back then was an alternate to the Boston Symphony so you know he was a first-class Classical musician back in the day. I can still hear his words advising me
''Don't collapse your mouth corners in the lower register''. Smart man huh?
I've learned another explanation lately and it goes like this. Pardon my bluntness: ''Any idiot can learn how to blow good, solid, low tones on the trumpet''. In fact, trumpet players who can blow solid, resonant low tones are a dime a dozen.
Yet how many trumpet players do you know personally who can connect their Low C to the Double C? Frankly I only have one in my Rolodex. Perhaps someone may consider my words here overly obsessed with the upper tones, but this is not so at all. My only purpose in concentrating on forming/sustaining my embouchure dead perfectly is to make absolutely certain that my development is on solid ground. Being able to connect a second line G to a G above High C or even the Double C is what I consider a critical test of a properly formed set of chops.
One of the gravest problems that trumpet players face happens right from the moment of their first lesson. Consider that band directors have other young instrumentalists to teach as well as their trumpets. These other young instrumentalists who play clarinet, sax, flute, as well as trombone etc, will not have range problems such as trumpet players generally incur. They'll also most likely develop more quickly too! So you see even if the band director was familiar with the correct way to help a young student set his chops on the trumpet? He WOULDN'T HAVE THE TIME AVAILABLE TO DEVOTE HIMSELF TO THE STUDENT TRYING TO PLAY CORRECTLY!
This is certainly not the fault of the hard-working band director. Please don't mistake my words for a complaint. The problem essentially is that that the trumpet is USUALLY incomplete in the young instrumentalist. in other words, the tenor sax, for example only has one proper way to position the ligature, reed, and mouthpiece. And yet these three corresponding parts on the trumpet DO NOT COME WITH THE INSTRUMENT! indeed they correlate with:
Reed = Upper Lip
Ligature = Mouthcorners, and related facial muscles.
The trumpet has a mouthpiece of course and yet it is only half of the ''bookend''. The other part of the ''bookend'' is the upper & lower teeth''.
So you see when the beginning trumpet player takes his first blow into the instrument, he has very little chance of properly executing an initial set-up that will eventually allow him the complete range of the instrument. Unless he is as was once so well-described by Donald Reinhardt a ''Physical Accident''? There's no freakin way in Hell that he's going to line up all of these parts perfectly.
But meanwhile, the beginning clarinetist and tenor sax players will have their instruments perfectly put together. As such they will excel and play the full range on their axes. This being the case? The band director will simply adjust to and live with a row of young trumpet players who'll remain able to play only half of their instrument's range FOR LIFE!
Here & there of course we'll see remarkable exceptions. Young hotshots with enviable chops. Often kids who will blow at least a half-decent Double C during their first or second week playing the trumpet. Someone told me that Wayne Bergeron was like this. That and I just learned from a good source that Maynard never really quite understood why other trumpet players couldn't do the same things that he could do. One of many things that I always respected Maynard for was that he actually admitted that he wasn't sure if his method would work for everyone. And Doc said pretty much the same thing too. I know that I went on a while here. Another long post, but I am most emphatic about these concepts. I truly believe that there is much hope for all of us who struggle.
I myself am FINALLY pulling myself out of the doldrums of at least a slightly stunted upper register. The Stevens-Costello System giving me great hope. Am able finally to ''Sit'' on notes well above High C. But I also admit that I have a ways to go. Roughly another year & a half I reckon. Before reaching the point where I can blow a commercial lead trumpet. Thanks for reading Jay. Best regards to all! _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | Seymor B Fudd wrote: | ...
Keeping the tongue à la whistling is one way of avoiding this. ... |
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Thanks for the idea. Premature 'relaxing' of embouchure control might be an issue for me. It might be a need to continue 'follow-through' of the initial note sounding 'control' for the complete duration of a sustained note.
Do any of our experienced teachers notice a problem like that in some students? If yes, what method do you use to teach/correct it. |
Maybe this might help:
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | lakejw wrote: | Yes there is a technique. But, more importantly, there are goals you should be striving for to reinforce the proper technique.
...
These are some things to keep in mind while practicing long tones. If you listen critically and really focus your attention on these aspects, good technique will follow. |
----------------------------------------------------
Background info - I recorded an excerpt and was surprised and disappointed by the unsteady sound of sustained notes - variation in both pitch and volume.
I then did some long tone practice and noticed that on sustained notes, the feel of the mouthpiece pressure on my lips was wavering (and some jaw wavering). I try to not use excessive pressure on my upper lip, but it seemed that if I slightly increased the upper lip pressure that the 'wavering' was significantly reduced.
More practice with concentration on maintaining embouchure control (no easing-off or relaxing) is showing benefits. I realize that my basic 'muscle control' probably needs more training. If there is an aspect of 'technique' that I don't know about, I'd like to learn what it is.
I will be devoting much more practice time to long tones - I didn't appreciate their value, and the important function they serve. | Hold a G for 30 minutes, breathing when needed. Do this each day for a week and see how your playing develops. For me, I leveled up when I started doing serious long tones. Like John Lake said, focus on what's happening while you are doing it, the goal is a steady warm sound. It's very meditative. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:11 am Post subject: |
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------------------------------------
:lol: good one!
Perhaps you or someone else could write a short section about 'sustained note considerations'.
It's obvious that I am weak in that area. Hopefully there are some concise, understandable, and helpful words / descriptions that I 'should have known about', and which would supply good 'basic info'.
thanks for your interest! _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:21 am Post subject: |
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On youtube some folk have created long tone play alongs. I've done them sometimes to work on intonation/pitch matching, but it may also work for embouchure.
I think in one of his online teaching videos Jens Lindemann talks about doing very quiet long tones for extended periods. |
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Bflatman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:52 am Post subject: |
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I never saw a definition of a long tone published but plenty of advice to practice it and this led me to be confused (a natural state for me) for some considerable time.
I considered a long tone to be an unbroken tone that lasts for a long time and therefore is long, not just longer than short.
This led me to play single tone long tones in practice for as long as my air lasted before needing another breath.
I built this up to a strong and single tone lasting from between 60 seconds when tired to 130 seconds on a good day when fresh. That was many years ago.
I havent practiced long tones in years although I demonstrate them from time to time, a 100 second long tone usually surprises the listener.
Because of this practice I dont have much of a problem lasting between natural breathing points and can play some pieces with one single breath. I have been asked many times if I circular breathe. Of course I dont, I dont need to.
Reading this thread suggests a long tone is anything above 10 seconds. Is this right.
Is there a technique to playing 100 second long tones, - yes, it is determination, practice and unvarying breath control and accepting the pain as the tank empties to keep the tone pure and full and playing through the pain to the end of the tone.
I dont see a difference in embouchure or in setup or in pressure between playing melodies and playing long tones, the embouchure for me is the same, it is the duration only that changes.
I have noticed that as the long tone progresses beyond around 20 seconds I need to keep on top of and in control of the chops to stop the tone weakening and breaking up, some strengthening of the embouchure as I feel it weaken helps to sustain the note without wavering.
I dont know if this makes sense.
This is just what I have observed and what I have worked out for myself I am not sure if this is at all appropriate for other players who may have a radically different approach and different embouchure _________________ Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:14 am Post subject: |
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Here are examples of the Chicowicz flow studies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNKWZEMW5r4
When done properly, as these are, these exercises are superb examples of moving the air cleanly from note to note and in various registers.
As stated above, Clarke is also a flow study with finger dexterity as a paramount.
R. Tomasek |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2665 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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I have to say, it takes an amazing amount of deciphering to work out what the OP is talking about. If (IF) I have it right, the issue is that they are trying to play as relaxed as they can - and then creating a raft of issues with this faulty setup.
This is not about long notes/tones. This is about sustaining the energy / effort to play a line of notes (or a single note). The confusion has come into it through extended over-analysis and what I refer to as 'blah blah blah'.
There's a few simpler ways to go.
1. Recognise that we need a certain amount of energy to play. USE it.
2. Set your face to play high(er). This setup can play from high into the very bottom register and through to pedals. A loose, relaxed face playing low notes cannot get up to the high register without 'changing gear'.
3. Flow. There are no long tones, short tones, etc. ALL notes are part of a line, sustained through focus, with the energy at all times. Doing flow studies / Chicowicz / Clarke etc. really doesn't help if this idea is missing. If the idea is there, then any of these will help!
4. Music. I would guess that the bulk of writing on TH avoids music at all times. Odd that. Because making music is the core task. Thinking of making music with ALL playing, even if it is Scheubruk attack exercises, will go a long way to solving the apparent playing issues the OP has. (I suspect they are attitudinal issues, not playing ones)
Way too many words, sorry...
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Andy Del wrote: | ... This is about sustaining the energy / effort to play a line of notes (or a single note). ...
There's a few simpler ways to go.
1. Recognise that we need a certain amount of energy to play. USE it.
...
3. Flow. ... sustained through focus, with the energy at all times. Doing flow studies / Chicowicz / Clarke etc. really doesn't help if this idea is missing. If the idea is there, then any of these will help!
... |
----------------------------
Andy, I agree with everything you wrote. The snippets above are the ones that have proven most useful to solving the particular trouble I was having. Particularly the points about sustaining energy and focus for the full duration - there isn't a 'sustain pedal' on wind instruments! _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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drboogenbroom wrote: | Quote: |
Do any of our experienced teachers notice a problem like that in some students? If yes, what method do you use to teach/correct it. |
All the time. The first thing we try to do is get them to stop obsessing over the minutiae of what they imagine they feel and get their focus on either the audiation or timing.
If they have pretty good audiation, typically bringing attention to the end of the note is enough to fix the problem. I find most people who struggle with this do not actively imagine how they want the end of the note to sound with any detail.
If their audiation is weak or they need a little boost, we shift the focus to the timing and apply Caruso's 4 rules.
Kevin |
_________________ Bill Bergren |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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It should go without saying that every exercise should be done with an emphasis on making music.
Unfortunately, as Andy Del says, that seems an objective missing here quite frequently.
R. Tomasek |
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