What makes a trumpet record well?

[JeffTheHornGuy]

Now that my band has been recording our live shows, I've noticed that sound I hear from behind the horn can vary greatly from the sound picked up by the mic. For reference, I'm using a Shure Beta 98 clip mic, so the mic placement is close to identical between horns. In person, the difference between how my trumpets sound is subtle at best. Played in a room, a discerning musician could probably make general observations like "that one sounds brighter," but when recorded into a close-proximity microphone, the differences are super apparent and often times completely differ from what I think the differences are.

My B&S is the worst example - the sound right out of the bell ALWAYS sounds thin, and when I feel like I'm playing "dark" it just comes across as weak. It simply does not sound good on recordings, ever. My Benge MLP, on the other hand, sounds basically the same into a mic as it does behind the bell and sounds great. My Bach 37 also records fairly well, whereas my Olds Super suffers similar problems to my B&S (albeit not as bad). It's also not like my playing is wildly inconsistent between horns; it really is just the sound directly on the other side of the bell that's different.

Since I expect to be recording shows for the foreseeable future, down the road, I would like to try to find a horn for gigs that plays as easily as my B&S, but sounds as natural as my Benge. In your experiences, what qualities impact how a trumpet sounds in recordings?
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Trumpet player in Couch
Puje "Super T"
1970 Bach Stradivarius 37
Custom Lawler C7
Electronic music producer

[shofarguy]

I can't answer your question, but the mere fact that you are asking it shows me that you are beginning a similar journey to the one I began soon after I came back to trumpet playing in 2004. It's the path that leads to really listening.

I think the first, most apparent element in play is acoustic frequency response patterns. Each brass instrument has its own "fingerprint," if you will, of strong and weak frequencies. So do microphones, amplifiers, speakers and recorders. The more these all line up with each other, the better the horn will "go on tape," I suppose.

If you begin in your mind to divide the timbre you're hearing into frequency ranges, as if you were a graphic equalizer, you can create a contour of stronger and weaker parts to an instrument's sound. My original Wild Thing had very solid fundamental frequencies and reasonably strong upper overtones, but there was a hole in the midrange overtones. This is the classic "Teutonic" sound. It's the Bach sound. Benge trumpets have somewhat weaker fundamental frequencies, stronger midrange and strong upper range overtones.

See if you can draw the graphic shape in your mind. The Bach starts high on the left (low frequency), drops pretty low in the middle and rises again as the trace moves to the right. The Benge, on the other hand, starts (let's say) 30% lower on the left side, rises quickly in a sideways parabolic curve and sort of flattens out, as we trace the frequencies to the right. We say the Benge has a "transparent" tone quality. That is the weaker fundamental low frequencies at work. Callicchio trumpets also record well. Some would say they are the best for studio work. Their acoustic contour is similar to Benge, but with even stronger upper overtones.

My guess is that the recorder needs strong midrange and high frequency response, but only adequate fundamental response. I could be wrong.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[Jaw04]

I think the EQ and compression on the soundboard, and the microphone you are using, will have more impact on your final Mic'd sound than which trumpet you are playing. I suggest just using whatever horn you are most comfortable on and you enjoy the sound from behind the bell/in the monitor, and getting the EQ dialed in.

[trickg]

The best recording trumpet I ever had was my Schilke B6, followed by my Jupiter 1600i Ingram.

My Bach Strad LB/25 never recorded well for some reason - it just didn't print to mic as well, and I'm not sure why.
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Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[Riojazz]

I notice there are several models of the discontinued Shure Beta 98. Which do you have? I looked at the spec sheet for a basic one and it is quite flat until a boost starting around 7000 Hz, which won't help much unless you are Maynard reincarnated. A cheap mic stand mic you see everywhere, the Shure 58, has a much more pronounced boost in the vocal range. I'm oversimplifying, but the point is that it isn't just the trumpet; you have to take into account the mic you are using. And are they recording that direct, or from a mic in front of an amp cabinet?
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Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

[kehaulani]

Why is it you just don't play the Benge?
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet

[Notlem]

I don’t have much to add here but my Bach 190s37 can be further from my ribbon mic, where as my Schilke x3l with beryllium bell needs to be closer to get a better core to the sound or I just need to play it at higher volume.

I wonder if distance for you clip on needs to be adjusted on your B&S to get the more desired output… milking it more or less.

I am also surprised that the sure dynamic mics seem to still be the choice for live performance. Ribbon mics are available for live setups, I think the royer 121 is available in a live version, the royer r-10 is a live version and that Barkley makes a live version that is on my wish list.

Is it the genre of music that dictates to use a dynamic mic versus a ribbon? Is it environmental, like outdoor versus indoor? Do live ribbon mics not work well outdoors?

Let me know before I spend hard cash on anything else!

-marc

[trickg]

[JeffTheHornGuy]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Brian, as someone who spends a lot of time producing music and editing recordings, I have actually spent some times looking at a FR graph of my trumpets! The graphs are ultimately all pretty similar so nothing conclusive there. I have heard as a rule of thumb that brighter equipment tends to record better for some reason, and in my experience that holds true. In my experience, boosting the EQ in certain mid-high frequency ranges doesn't replicate the effect of just using a brighter trumpet. As mentioned, horns resonate differently and tiny little differences in FR can change the timbre and recording qualities.

As to why I'm using the equipment that I use, I would just play the Benge (which I normally do) but I overall prefer to play my B&S simply in terms of feel. We use the Shure Beta 98a clip mics because we are all very mobile on stage (choreography, moving with the emotions of playing, etc) so a stationary mic would not work well for these purposes.
_________________
Trumpet player in Couch
Puje "Super T"
1970 Bach Stradivarius 37
Custom Lawler C7
Electronic music producer

[Adam West]

Where you position the mic has the most influence. The further away you can get it the better. There will be a lot of differences off axis as well. Are you pointing it straight into the bell or off to the side? So much can influence it. Fwiw, I think the Shure is pretty mediocre, and you'd probably get a more natural sound from a DPA 4099.

[Adam West]

and also, to note, the Shure is a condenser, not a dynamic mic. Just not a very good one.

[Notlem]

[bach_again]

Nice to see my name in the ring, among those who had inspired me to build in the first place (David Royer)! Cheers, Marc

Speaking to my "live" design - it has less proximity, so you can get closer and maintain a more even sound, where my studio model will gain up to 6db additional in the bass end, which can give you that fat jazz/close mic sound but can make it a little less easy live. I have extra dust screening, a slightly thicker ribbon and extra wind screening, however, they - just like the Royers - are inherently delicate being ribbon mics. None of them are tough, or will withstand drops (well none you would want to record on do!). I offer a lifetime warranty for this reason, and I am working on add-ons to sell with the mics for anyone using specifically outside.

I can also say that Lady Gaga's horns go live with ribbons, Royer 121's I believe, but I may be well mistaken. I don't know how they handle the foldback other than they will have the top sound engineers on the gig, and probably run in-ears rather than strong foldback.

Sorry, I could talk mics all day.

Regarding what makes trumpet record well, and your experiences of your horn live (I have had the same):

The player feedback is such an integral portion of the gig that you can take a wonderful playing & recording horn (such as your Studio, one of which I also own and regularly record on) and place it in a live situation and find it doesn't tape. That horn, for me, has a little less player feedback, and on live, loud function band gigs I blow past the sweet spot & resonant point, to the point of making the horn dull. Peter Bond talks about blowing the horn dull in his book "the singing trumpet" a concept I am familiar with - one of those things, when you put more in you get less out. So hearing yourself and playing optimally are inextricably linked.

I actually sought out and bought a 1946 Olds Super for the very reason you mention - I wanted a brighter, more alive horn, and it is really doing the trick - though I play more in tune on my Studio (this Super is very new to me mind). The Super has more player feedback, mine is lighter, and resonates easier. It reminds me of old French horns, which I love. On a ribbon mic in my home studio both record extremely well - perhaps the Super has the edge. More complex overtones, more density to the sound. Louder

I had an Elkhart 37 Strad which recorded wonderfully well, and was a killer live horn. Super even, projected amazingly even when you thought it wasn't.

My old CG Benge was another which recorded and played live extremely well.

The common thread, if there was such a thing, is that all of those horns were on the lighter side, and were prime examples of each.

It is always worth checking valve alignment, cleanliness, gap, and so on. Valve alignment can make quite a big difference. I always align my own horns to ensure this - the local techs aren't hip to valve alignments and the necessity of correct felts, so I have on several occasions got horns wildly out of whack after work/service. Mostly I find it affects slotting, timbre and pitch - in varying degrees.

If any of your horns are leaky - try heavier oil and remember the slides are part of the leak equation. Water key corks too! Just running through the checklist.

Microphone placement in the case of a clip on can have a part to play as well - directly down the throat of the bell is not ideal, I always use my clip on off-axis - usually pointing towards the opposite side bell bead across the bell, or just off centre a little. Thought depending on the direness of the gig I have ended up jamming the mic down the bell to be heard - lol!

My experience with B&S was the same as you, but I have colleagues who sound incredible on theirs. I'll take the blame there!

HTH!

Mike
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[Jaw04]

[nick8801]

I'll chime in here, because I do a lot of recording and producing as well as trumpet playing. One thing to consider is that those clip on mics are usually hyper cardioid. Meaning they really only pick up exactly what's right in front of them. That means no room sound or space around the horn whatsoever. Even a 57 live will grab a little more room around the trumpet on a recording, albeit at the expense of picking up other sounds from the stage. When I first started recording many years ago, I always hated the sound of my horn because I really wasn't used to hearing such a dry trumpet sound. It wasn't until I got to record in bigger better studios where the room sound really helped open up the recording, that I realized what I was missing. My point is, dry direct trumpet is always gonna sound a little weird no matter what mic/horn you use. The solution that has worked best for me is to practice recording at home with whatever mic I'm using live. So if it's the Shure Beta clip on, then stick that on your horn, plug into an interface, put on a pair of good headphones, and learn to play the horn (whichever one you like playing) to that mic. Eventually you learn how to play into that mic to get the best tone going. A side effect of this is that I've really become a much more efficient player with a sound I'd call more consistent and balanced. Not judging your playing at all, just pointing out what worked for me.
I'd also like to add, the ribbon mic revolution that has happened over the past 15 years or so is really interesting to me. Yes, ribbons are much more natural sounding microphones than most condensers, but they can be really dark as well. In my dry/dead home space ribbons sound great on solo trumpet, but sometimes in a mix, they can sound a little flat no matter what horn I'm playing. I think what a lot of people dig about ribbons, besides the natural sound, is the figure of 8 pattern. It definitely lends itself to a certain tonality. I find I have much better results (in my room with my equipment) on a u47 clone that I set to figure 8 for horn and guitar recording. There is just more harmonic information there. Call it sparkle, or presence, but I much prefer it to my ribbons (I have several) when it comes to recording trumpet that's meant for a busier, modern mix. I'd still love to try out a Barkley at some point though!