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stumac Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 Posts: 697 Location: Flinders, Australia
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Have you considered that the problem may not be in the casing but the valve itself, if it sticks while extracting is it nearer the top? The valve may have been dropped sometime and may be distorted slightly at the bottom.
Have you tried it in another position? If it still sticks this may be the problem.
Regards, Stuart. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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Phoenix864 wrote: | cheiden - yeah, cleaning the interconnecting valve tubes is probably a good idea. I haven't been doing it at home, due to the difficulty of access. I think the tech might have cleaned them when they did their deep clean of the pistons and the casing. Is there a good way to clean these tubes at home without rising damage to the inside of the casing? Next time I have the horn out I'll try tugging on the 2nd slide to see what effect it has on valve action. |
You can reach those tubes by removing the first, second and third valve crooks leaving the valve pistons in place. Then take your snake and feed it through one leg into the valve block. By depressing the valves you can guide the snake into the connecting tubes.
By using different valve combinations you can reach each of the connecting tubes.
A swab that is pulled by a string might work well, or even better, as I worry about the metal end of the snake possible scratching if it impacts the piston or port.
With the string you can feed the string through and then pull the snake after. |
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krell1960 Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2020 Posts: 148
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:52 am Post subject: |
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If you really want it corrected, bite the bullet and send it to someone like Doctor Valve, or another recognized valve specialist. Yes, shipping is inconvenient and expensive, but how inconvenient is a glitchy valve? And how expensive is the instrument?
You can try any number of DIY fixes, there’s a good chance you won’t get anywhere, and might make it worse.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Last edited by Brad361 on Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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improver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1455
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:14 am Post subject: |
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I had a similar problem. If you Google the guy who shows you how to use toothpaste correctly in cleaning valves and casings. I've done it 5 times now and always cleaning out the whole horn. Each time when I do the toothpaste I put it in a cloth and work the valve in that toothpaste cloth as if you were lapping your valves. That's actually what your doing with the toothpaste. But you just do the casing too. Dont give up. Mine has gotten immensely better. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:54 am Post subject: |
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If the problem is especially evident right after you oil the valves then the oil you're using may be too heavy. There is such a thing as too much oil impeding the valve action. You may need a lighter weight oil for this horn.
Another possibility, which has been mentioned here, is that the second valve slide may be putting some tension on the valve. I have a Benge 5X that had an issue with the second valve hanging up. It was as mysterious as the problem you are encountering. After reading the responses here I tried removing the second valve slide, flipping it over and putting it back in upside down compared to how it was before. The sticking went away. Try it. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6187
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Phoenix864 wrote: |
etc-etc - thanks for the advice, I'll keep that in mind. I wouldn't describe these valves as particularly tight, but that sounds like a good thing to do down the line a bit, when debris have begun to collect again. When you wet the chamois it's just water, right? No soap, alcohol, or other cleaners?
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I use water to thoroughly moisten the chamois. Dried out chamois is a little rough and may shed particles if in contact with the casing or piston.
Adding a drop of Palmolive detergent to water and chamois should not hurt either, but I have not tried it on casings (you would have to flush out soap with water afterwards). |
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Phoenix864 Veteran Member
Joined: 20 May 2019 Posts: 223 Location: Washington DC, US
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:02 am Post subject: |
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stumac - it's possible, though I did have the tech check the valve roundness/straightness as well. The sticking when playing occurs closer to the middle/bottom of the upstroke, and the slight suction feel when removing the piston occurs right at the beginning - after that it slides out smoothly. Piston straightness is definitely something I'll have checked when I get the horn to another tech. When you say "try in another position," that would be trying the 2nd valve in the 1st or the 3rd valve casings, right?
LittleRusty - thanks for the instructions. When cleaning I'm always quite worried about scratching the piston ports/casing, but it seems like doing this every so often is important to reduce buildup in the tubes. I'll have a look around to see if I can find a very soft/non-scratching swab.
krell1960/improver - thanks for the suggestions, but I really don't want to apply anything that is/might be an abrasive to the valves. I somewhat regret doing the first lapping, and most definitely do not want to take any more material off the casing or the pistons.
Brad361 - yeah, that would be the best option. The horn was around 4k new, I purchased for $2500. Frankly, I feel like I overpaid a bit for the horn, and would prefer not to drop tons more into it. So far, I've only put another $50-100 in at local techs. Between, packing, shipping, higher shop rates for well-known shops, and the possibility of the horn getting lost/damaged in shipping, I'm hoping to keep my efforts local. Definitely not planning on DIYing anything though - just basic stuff like cleaning and oil choice. Everything else I'll leave to a well-regarded tech.
HERMOKIWI - I'll definitely give flipping the 2nd slide a shot, in addition to pressing on it a bit. Oil for the horn has been a weird one - I started with Ultrapure regular, before trying Hetman 2 (no mixing with anything heavy either). The hangup occurred with both oils, so I tried Hetman 3 - same issue. The best results I had were with Hetman 4 (slide oil) during the winter. The sticking went away, but has begun to return with warming temps. I've been mixing Hetman 3 and 4 recently, but will probably try some lighter oils again (maybe something like Al Cass, as JayKosta suggested).
Manuel de los Campos - yikes - yeah, that's a bit much for me. If that's what the techs do, I'll leave it to their experienced hand. The outer tubes for the 2nd valve slide pop off for him in one out of 4 repairs? That sounds incredibly high.
etc-etc - sounds good, thanks for the info. That sounds like a good way to clean the pistons/casing - I'll definitely look into picking up some chamois for that. |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:41 am Post subject: Sticking valve |
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I have had a few of my older horns sent back to me with sticking valve complaints, mostly on the up stroke. These were all on Kanstul valve blocks and with my CarolBrass valve blocks being used now this problem has disappeared. What I've found is the bottom of the valve casing had gotten compressed due to the bottom caps being tightened a bit much over the years which slightly reduced the diameter of the bottom of the casing. My fix is to remove the valves and caps, put my long tapered mandrel into each casing gently from the bottom and measure the place where the mandrel ends up. It always ends up less on the sticking valve and simply apply slight pressure to equalize all three. On occasion a slight lap with Lava hand soap suds removes the years of valve oil residue. A 3M Scotch Bright pad soaked with water and dish detergent rubbed on the valves is a pretty good cleaner as well to eliminate lapping.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Phoenix864 wrote: | ... I've been mixing Hetman 3 and 4 recently, but will probably try some lighter oils again (maybe something like Al Cass, as JayKosta suggested). ... |
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Just to clarify - using straight Al Cass still resulted in valve sticking a short while after oiling. I have read thoughts about oils having differences in the amount to which they 'cling' to the metal surfaces. Cling is important because an oil functions by establishing a very thin layer of liquid film between the OD of the piston body and the ID of the casing.
What I do now is to first apply a few drops of straight drug store Mineral Oil and wipe that around the piston with my finger. Then I insert the piston into the valve casing and gently rotate it a bit to distribute the oil (some people suggest not doing any rotating, but in my case there is not any binding or sticking during the rotates). Finally I pull the piston up a bit and apply a drop or two of Al Cass onto the piston and then seat the piston and tighten the top cap. If the valve action is too sluggish, I add another drop or two of Al Cass. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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improver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1455
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Crazy, I just watched that video provided by hermokwi and took my first valve slide inserted it in my second valve slide pushed up a little and the remaining little catch is gone. Its moving like a new valve. Thx |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:06 am Post subject: |
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Manuel de los Campos wrote: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ29c7gPoZE Check out all of his videos |
Great information. I'm saving that for later and subscribing to that guy's YouTube channel. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:30 am Post subject: |
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Manuel de los Campos wrote: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ29c7gPoZE Check out all of his videos |
---------------------------------------
That is an interesting video regarding a 2nd (or 1/3) valve that is mechanically stuck in position - it might apply to a valve that sometimes sticks - especially if there is a specific position in which the sticking happens.
Just using a case mandrel might not be enough because the metal needs to be forced SLIGHTLY more than just being round - because when the mandrel is removed the case will 'spring' back to still being too tight. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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krell1960 Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2020 Posts: 148
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Sticking valve |
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Tony Scodwell wrote: | I have had a few of my older horns sent back to me with sticking valve complaints, mostly on the up stroke. These were all on Kanstul valve blocks and with my CarolBrass valve blocks being used now this problem has disappeared. What I've found is the bottom of the valve casing had gotten compressed due to the bottom caps being tightened a bit much over the years which slightly reduced the diameter of the bottom of the casing. My fix is to remove the valves and caps, put my long tapered mandrel into each casing gently from the bottom and measure the place where the mandrel ends up. It always ends up less on the sticking valve and simply apply slight pressure to equalize all three. On occasion a slight lap with Lava hand soap suds removes the years of valve oil residue. A 3M Scotch Bright pad soaked with water and dish detergent rubbed on the valves is a pretty good cleaner as well to eliminate lapping.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
bar keepers friend, in the liquid form also a good cleaner. especially on stainless valves. much less abrasive then lava soap. but only in the liquid form.
Tom
tom |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:51 am Post subject: |
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Valve stem bent? I had a valve once where the downstroke was fine, but the upstroke hung up. We tried everything oil and cleaning related, lapping the valve, you name it. It turned out the valve stem had a very (and I mean very) slight bend that made the valve stick at the bottom of the valve when pressed, and it would hang.
The new valve stem was inexpensive and still works to this day. _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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MarkD Regular Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2020 Posts: 32 Location: Phoenix, Az
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Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | Phoenix864 wrote: | ... I've been mixing Hetman 3 and 4 recently, but will probably try some lighter oils again (maybe something like Al Cass, as JayKosta suggested). ... |
----------------------------------
Just to clarify - using straight Al Cass still resulted in valve sticking a short while after oiling. I have read thoughts about oils having differences in the amount to which they 'cling' to the metal surfaces. Cling is important because an oil functions by establishing a very thin layer of liquid film between the OD of the piston body and the ID of the casing.
What I do now is to first apply a few drops of straight drug store Mineral Oil and wipe that around the piston with my finger. Then I insert the piston into the valve casing and gently rotate it a bit to distribute the oil (some people suggest not doing any rotating, but in my case there is not any binding or sticking during the rotates). Finally I pull the piston up a bit and apply a drop or two of Al Cass onto the piston and then seat the piston and tighten the top cap. If the valve action is too sluggish, I add another drop or two of Al Cass. |
This article has some good information about valve oil from a scientific “point of view” without relying on anecdotal experiences from players.
https://www.nemc.com/resources/articles/valve-oil-the-more-you-kno_54 |
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Steve Hollahan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Oct 2005 Posts: 519 Location: Charlotte, NC
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Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:37 pm Post subject: Sticking valve |
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Is the valve loose? This causes sticking as valve doesn't go up and down "straight", but side ways.
Try to shake the valve or take off bottom cap and watch valve as you move the valve. You can see movement. _________________ Steve Hollahan
Bach 37, 229 C
Yamaha 9620 D-Eb, 741 C, Flugel
Kanstul 900 piccolo trumpet
Sculptured Recrafting Custom Instrument Repair
and Restoration
www.sculpturedrecrafting.com |
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MarkD Regular Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2020 Posts: 32 Location: Phoenix, Az
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Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Haven’t heard from the OP in about 3 months. Did he ever resolve his problem? |
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Phoenix864 Veteran Member
Joined: 20 May 2019 Posts: 223 Location: Washington DC, US
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Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:11 am Post subject: |
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With the additional posts in this thread, I though I might update regarding the horn. Fortunately, after an ultrasonic cleaning, some additional alignment to the pistons and casing, and a valve oil switch, the valve is working much better. I previously tried a number of Hetman and Ultrapure weights, but the tech recommended La Tromba T2. I've been using it since the cleaning with good results. |
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