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Schilke B's.


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Aaronis
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:00 pm    Post subject: Schilke B's. Reply with quote

Hey all,

I've been looking at Schilke lately. I have never owned one nor played one, but their history, reputation, give me great interest. I enjoy playing jazz the most. I have been looking at the B series with highest interest in the B1, and B6. Any feedback on these horns? I know the B6 is a medium bore horn and I have not played anything smaller than a .459 bore. Any experiences with a medium bore Schilke? I'm also aware it has a red brass copper bell.

The B1 from what I have read is a all around very well rounded horn. Thoughts on that?

I have read the Schilke Loyalist article but just trying to hear from others.

Lastly, could someone educate me on the term "Yamalloy." I believe it refers to the valves in some fashion. Thank you for any information you can provide. And of course if you have a different opinion on another Schilke, I'd love to hear it. Thanks.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Renold Schilke was first and foremost an orchestral trumpeter. The B1 is reflective of his personal preference.

The B6 is a very different horn - more flexible and adaptive, less focused in projection, but can fill the room with ease, (the bore diameter borders on a meaningless detail. It has zero effect on actual air flow, and is not different enough to significantly alter the way in which the instrument filters and amplifies). The high-copper bell can be more damping on the high end, but its taper and temper make for great flexibility.

Schilke horns are designed with a geometry that centers loose, allowing the player to adjust pitch center with great (or for some too much) ease. In that regard, they are the antithesis of an Elkhart Bach 180. An unaltered Mt. Vernon requires a one inch pull to be in tune and is more flexible centering than a 180, and similar to your Benge. If you take the difference between a 180 and Mt. Vernon as a yardstick, the difference from that to a Schilke B series is another 2-plus yards.

Of the pros I have known playing Schilke in a jazz setting, the B6 has been pretty much the model of choice - except for one B1 player for whom the genre was a secondary focus.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Schilke makes fantastic horns. I would consider them to be one of the best "factory" produced horns on the market. Reynold Schilke was one of the first to scientifically study the effects of vibrational nodes on sound and intonation. The fact that he himself was a world-class trumpet player certainly helped him develop great instruments.

Schilke B-series horns all have the same leadpipe, and you have 3 choices for the bell and 3 choices for the bore. The B1 is a ML bore and large (#1) bell flare. The B6 is a M bore and a medium (#2) bell flare. I have owned a B3, HC1, and HC2, and even the B3 with it's "small" (#3) bell taper was a huge sounding instrument, and definitely could have been used for jazz. It reminded me a lot of a Calicchio 3/9. Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about bore size since every model was designed by a master trumpet player.

What type of trumpet sound do you like? Brilliant, dark, symphonic, smokey? What type of playing do you want to do with this horn? Solo jazz? Big band? Studio? Lead? Generally, the B1 and B5 are considered the most "all around" designs in the line. The B6 is a little more specialized for lead players (it's basically a B5 with a medium bore), and the X3 is a larger bore version of the B1, and the X4 is an even larger version the X3. The B3 was the choice of Bud Herseth, but it features the same bell as the current Faddis signature model. A lot of studio/lead players used a B6, like Faddis and Bill Chase. The HC series are based on a Martin Committee, and were designed with Wallace Roney, so they should be perfect for that style of music. Joe Magnarelli is currently playing a B7, which has the large bell of a B1 and a medium bore. Similar in spec to a medium-bore Martin Committee. When I saw Jazz at the Lincoln Center, Ryan Kisor was playing lead on a Faddis signature model. You'd be hard pressed to find a Schilke that wasn't a great trumpet for jazz, although finding out what style you like will definitely help make a decision.


regarding Yamaloy:

Schilke and Yamaha had a close relationship from the early days of Yamaha beginning their trumpet manufacture. Reynold Schilke saw tremendous potential in Yamaha, and even remarked that Yamaha was constantly improving their designs even when there was no business reason to, and that's why he trusted them with all of his patents.

During the 80's, Schilke tried importing Yamaha valve blocks rather than building their own, presumably to save money, and these valve blocks did not last. Yamaha had developed a propriety alloy that they called "Yamaloy" for the valves, and it reacted with the body chemistry of players quite poorly. The pistons would stick and most horns from that era had to have valve jobs or else they would become unplayable within a few years. These horns can easily be identified by the outer shape of the valve block, which does not match with the traditional Schilke shape. Most of those horns are from the 20,000's serial number range. Arturo Sandoval's Schilke has a "Yamaloy" block, so they're not all bad, but I would steer clear out of caution.
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Aaronis
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Renold Schilke was first and foremost an orchestral trumpeter. The B1 is reflective of his personal preference.

The B6 is a very different horn - more flexible and adaptive, less focused in projection, but can fill the room with ease, (the bore diameter borders on a meaningless detail. It has zero effect on actual air flow, and is not different enough to significantly alter the way in which the instrument filters and amplifies). The high-copper bell can be more damping on the high end, but its taper and temper make for great flexibility.

Schilke horns are designed with a geometry that centers loose, allowing the player to adjust pitch center with great (or for some too much) ease. In that regard, they are the antithesis of an Elkhart Bach 180. An unaltered Mt. Vernon requires a one inch pull to be in tune and is more flexible centering than a 180, and similar to your Benge. If you take the difference between a 180 and Mt. Vernon as a yardstick, the difference from that to a Schilke B series is another 2-plus yards.

Of the pros I have known playing Schilke in a jazz setting, the B6 has been pretty much the model of choice - except for one B1 player for whom the genre was a secondary focus.


Thank you for the information. That helps.
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Aaronis
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
Schilke makes fantastic horns. I would consider them to be one of the best "factory" produced horns on the market. Reynold Schilke was one of the first to scientifically study the effects of vibrational nodes on sound and intonation. The fact that he himself was a world-class trumpet player certainly helped him develop great instruments.

Schilke B-series horns all have the same leadpipe, and you have 3 choices for the bell and 3 choices for the bore. The B1 is a ML bore and large (#1) bell flare. The B6 is a M bore and a medium (#2) bell flare. I have owned a B3, HC1, and HC2, and even the B3 with it's "small" (#3) bell taper was a huge sounding instrument, and definitely could have been used for jazz. It reminded me a lot of a Calicchio 3/9. Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about bore size since every model was designed by a master trumpet player.

What type of trumpet sound do you like? Brilliant, dark, symphonic, smokey? What type of playing do you want to do with this horn? Solo jazz? Big band? Studio? Lead? Generally, the B1 and B5 are considered the most "all around" designs in the line. The B6 is a little more specialized for lead players (it's basically a B5 with a medium bore), and the X3 is a larger bore version of the B1, and the X4 is an even larger version the X3. The B3 was the choice of Bud Herseth, but it features the same bell as the current Faddis signature model. A lot of studio/lead players used a B6, like Faddis and Bill Chase. The HC series are based on a Martin Committee, and were designed with Wallace Roney, so they should be perfect for that style of music. Joe Magnarelli is currently playing a B7, which has the large bell of a B1 and a medium bore. Similar in spec to a medium-bore Martin Committee. When I saw Jazz at the Lincoln Center, Ryan Kisor was playing lead on a Faddis signature model. You'd be hard pressed to find a Schilke that wasn't a great trumpet for jazz, although finding out what style you like will definitely help make a decision.


regarding Yamaloy:

Schilke and Yamaha had a close relationship from the early days of Yamaha beginning their trumpet manufacture. Reynold Schilke saw tremendous potential in Yamaha, and even remarked that Yamaha was constantly improving their designs even when there was no business reason to, and that's why he trusted them with all of his patents.

During the 80's, Schilke tried importing Yamaha valve blocks rather than building their own, presumably to save money, and these valve blocks did not last. Yamaha had developed a propriety alloy that they called "Yamaloy" for the valves, and it reacted with the body chemistry of players quite poorly. The pistons would stick and most horns from that era had to have valve jobs or else they would become unplayable within a few years. These horns can easily be identified by the outer shape of the valve block, which does not match with the traditional Schilke shape. Most of those horns are from the 20,000's serial number range. Arturo Sandoval's Schilke has a "Yamaloy" block, so they're not all bad, but I would steer clear out of caution.


Thank you. I'm more of a jazz player. I play a lot of standard jazz, big band, and a little lead in the past. I like a bit more brilliant sound than anything. That's my preference anyhow. My MP equipment helps with that as well some.

Thanks for the Yamaloy info. As you said, I will steer clear of those. I need to find a picture of a yamaloy valve body vs a schilke body so I know the difference.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:14 pm    Post subject: Schilke B's Reply with quote

Hello all,
Because you play mostly jazz, I would recommend you try a B5, B3 or X3. The X3 is still in the lightweight realm. After playing those three, you will have a good idea what seems to fit. Pay attention to the yellow Brass versus copper bells. I personally like the $3 yellow Brass bells, found on the B2 and B3. You don't have to worry about the yamalloy valves, unless you buy used with a 2x,xxx serial number sequence.
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Lawler Bb
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Renold Schilke was first and foremost an orchestral trumpeter. The B1 is reflective of his personal preference.

The B6 is a very different horn - more flexible and adaptive, less focused in projection, but can fill the room with ease, (the bore diameter borders on a meaningless detail. It has zero effect on actual air flow, and is not different enough to significantly alter the way in which the instrument filters and amplifies). The high-copper bell can be more damping on the high end, but its taper and temper make for great flexibility.

Schilke horns are designed with a geometry that centers loose, allowing the player to adjust pitch center with great (or for some too much) ease. In that regard, they are the antithesis of an Elkhart Bach 180. An unaltered Mt. Vernon requires a one inch pull to be in tune and is more flexible centering than a 180, and similar to your Benge. If you take the difference between a 180 and Mt. Vernon as a yardstick, the difference from that to a Schilke B series is another 2-plus yards.

Of the pros I have known playing Schilke in a jazz setting, the B6 has been pretty much the model of choice - except for one B1 player for whom the genre was a secondary focus.


I’ve experienced almost the opposite......

Schilke was an orchestral player, but don’t mistake a B1 for sounding and playing like the American orchestral trumpets have for the last 50 years. The B1 is more opulent, diffused, wider, and flexible than a Bach. There is much more “halo” and a noticeably smaller core than a Bach. The flexibility and slotting is closer to a Bach feel than a Benge feel, however.

The B6 definitely is more focused and “gutsy” than the B1, and has noticeably more resistance. Still, a wider sound shape and more colorful sound (copper bell) than my S32.

The big thing you will notice is the faster response, overall “nimble” feeling, and more shimmer than a Bach. The sound isn’t as colorful as a Bach or Benge, but can still have plenty of color.

Almost any a Schilke can be well rounded, and the variety of options allow you to find something to complement your concept of sound. Great horns!
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
l

regarding Yamaloy:

Schilke and Yamaha had a close relationship from the early days of Yamaha beginning their trumpet manufacture. Reynold Schilke saw tremendous potential in Yamaha, and even remarked that Yamaha was constantly improving their designs even when there was no business reason to, and that's why he trusted them with all of his patents.

During the 80's, Schilke tried importing Yamaha valve blocks rather than building their own, presumably to save money, and these valve blocks did not last. Yamaha had developed a propriety alloy that they called "Yamaloy" for the valves, and it reacted with the body chemistry of players quite poorly. The pistons would stick and most horns from that era had to have valve jobs or else they would become unplayable within a few years. These horns can easily be identified by the outer shape of the valve block, which does not match with the traditional Schilke shape. Most of those horns are from the 20,000's serial number range. Arturo Sandoval's Schilke has a "Yamaloy" block, so they're not all bad, but I would steer clear out of caution.


Actually in the '70's I was there.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Ed Kennedy"]
Goby wrote:
l

Actually in the '70's I was there.


Thanks for the correction. Would love to hear some stories about Schilke from back in the day.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Schilke makes terrific horns. I think that the B1 is a great place to start your search -- sort of the signature Schilke sound and feel. It is lightweight, fairly bright and open.

The B1, B5 and B2 are the same horn with different bell flares -- thought the B5's bell is copper -- so the sound is a bit more focused and the blow is a bit tighter as you move from the B1 to the B5 and then the B2. The same holds true of the B7-B6 (copper)-B4 progression if you are looking at medium bore.

The S and then HD series add progressively more mass to the horns (S then HD), which generally helps you get more "core" to the sound. I think that the idea was to offer something closer to the sound characteristics of a standard weight Bach or Yamaha trumpet, with the HD horns coming closest to that, and the S horns in between the B and HD. They use the same bell tapers as the B horns -- #2 (B5) for S and #2 or #3 (B2) for HD, but they are not just heavier versions of the B horns -- the blow is different as well.

Have fun!
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the chance to test play a lot of Schilkes a while back. My favorites playingwise were the B6 and B7. Sound wise the B6 was heads and shoulders above the B7 (for me ...). The B7 was too broad and lacked focus.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like the very thin copper "beryllium" bells. Besides them being even more responsive, I find that I can get more variety of colors.
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Usedtobegood
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love Schilke quality and craftsmanship. Are about 1100 or so horns a year true factory level production numbers? IMHO no, and I think Schilke's play more consistent horn to horn vs. other factory produced brands.

In my experience, I have witnessed a couple pros, all amazing players take various horns through varying levels of playing (I hate them BTW ) and comment on how well they play, ease of response and intonation, but then comment on how it won't work because the sound isn't what they need for their day gig. But then again I have stood 5 feet in front of Jon Faddis's bell and it works just fine for Jon!

OK, so I am going to get blasted for getting off the OP's ask. But go ahead and fire away, I am fully vaccinated.

I would suggest calling/emailing Schilke and discuss what you are looking for, get their recommendations and getting your hands on different models, play them and make your own decision.

As far as Schilke stories, there are so many to tell, my favorite is involving a well-known trumpeter, a Saturday morning at 529 S Wabash, Ren, Scott Laskey, alcohol and target pistol shooting.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

B1 or B7 for the section. B5 or B6 for the lead book (but B1 and B7 can work for the lead book, too).
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
B1 or B7 for the section. B5 or B6 for the lead book (but B1 and B7 can work for the lead book, too).

Why no B2 or B3 or B4 for the lead book?
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry wrote:
I really like the very thin copper "beryllium" bells. Besides them being even more responsive, I find that I can get more variety of colors.


When Canadian Brass was playing Schilke ('70's) Their Bb was a B6 (b) with extra large bell flare. (from Ron Romm)

The B6 was designed for Mitch Jellen, a NYC legit freelancer who introduced Bill Chase to the B6. Mitch was playing the ballet and "Bill was playing the ballerina.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usedtobegood wrote:
I would suggest calling/emailing Schilke and discuss what you are looking for, get their recommendations and getting your hands on different models, play them and make your own decision.


I hope the OP sees this through all of the other clutter. This is really excellent advice. I have called Schilke a few times and found the staff both willing to expend their time with anyone seeking advice, and exceptionally competent and helpful when they do.
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Usedtobegood
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
B1 or B7 for the section. B5 or B6 for the lead book (but B1 and B7 can work for the lead book, too).

Why no B2 or B3 or B4 for the lead book?


Agree, B2 is a very underrated lead horn.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Until last month, I played exclusively on a B1 for nearly 15 years. The only reason I have gone to a great Bach 190/37S is that at 70, I don't quite have the same control I did even a few years ago. The Bach plays as well with tighter slotting.
The B1 can do anything. I used it in orchestra, concert band, quartets, solo, and in big band on lead. (Lead is not my forte, but I can do it as long as it is not a super high register part.)
Here is a list of Schilke players.
https://www.schilkemusic.com/artists/
Talk to Schilke.
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Renold Schilke was first and foremost an orchestral trumpeter. The B1 is reflective of his personal preference.

The B6 is a very different horn - more flexible and adaptive, less focused in projection, but can fill the room with ease, (the bore diameter borders on a meaningless detail. It has zero effect on actual air flow, and is not different enough to significantly alter the way in which the instrument filters and amplifies). The high-copper bell can be more damping on the high end, but its taper and temper make for great flexibility.

Schilke horns are designed with a geometry that centers loose, allowing the player to adjust pitch center with great (or for some too much) ease. In that regard, they are the antithesis of an Elkhart Bach 180. An unaltered Mt. Vernon requires a one inch pull to be in tune and is more flexible centering than a 180, and similar to your Benge. If you take the difference between a 180 and Mt. Vernon as a yardstick, the difference from that to a Schilke B series is another 2-plus yards.

Of the pros I have known playing Schilke in a jazz setting, the B6 has been pretty much the model of choice - except for one B1 player for whom the genre was a secondary focus.


As along time Schilke owner and player, I am going to weigh in here because much of what has been said has not been my experience. I currently own a 1957 B1 prototype, several B2,s, several B3's, and an X3. I have owned in the past a B1, a B5, and a B6. I have played the B4 and B7. I currently play a B3 on a daily basis.

First of all, while Renold Schilke was "first and foremost an orchestral trumpeter" and the B1 was his personal favorite, the B1 would definitely not be my first choice to use in an orchestra.

I have never found the B1 to have better projection than a B6. In fact, I have found just the opposite. I have also never found Schilkes to "center loose".

I would also not consider that bore size "borders on a meaningless detail". I am not going to debate the differences in bore size based on some kind of mechanical air flow measurement. I will say this; that the playing characteristics between the B1 and B7 are significant, and the horns only differ by bore size. In my experience, the same applies for the B2 and B3, as well as the B5 and B6.

For playing lead, I have found the B2 and B3 to have the best focus and projection. For playing jazz, the B5, B6, B7 (similar in design to the medium bore Martin Committee and Bobby Shew Yamaha), and even the B1 would be my choice.

Also, as far as bell material is concerned, I believe the B5 and B6 have a regular weight solid copper bell. And if that isn't enough variety, any of the B series horns can be ordered with a "Beryllium Bell", which is actually a lightweight copper bell. Of my B3's, I have one with a regular yellow brass bell, and one with the Beryllium bell and while their playing characteristics are quite similar, there is a noticeable difference in the sound and projection.

The OP's inquiry was for the Schilke B series. Schilke also has additional series' that provide additional options. These include the "X" series, the "S" series, the "HD" series, and the "HC" series.
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