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Schilke B's.


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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
B1 or B7 for the section. B5 or B6 for the lead book (but B1 and B7 can work for the lead book, too).

Why no B2 or B3 or B4 for the lead book?


I have personal experience with the B1, B5, B6 and B7. I've never played the B2, B3 or B4. I prefer to recommend based on actual personal experience and not on the basis of speculation.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
Of my B3's, I have one with a regular yellow brass bell, and one with the Beryllium bell and while their playing characteristics are quite similar, there is a noticeable difference in the sound and projection.

Would you describe the difference in sound and projection that you experience between your B3 and B3b?

Do you find that the lighter weight B3b projects further than the yellow brass B3?

Is it easier to get a "ring" in one over the other? (Yes, using words to describe sound might not be an effective way of communicating accurately.)

When do you use one over the other?

Thanks in advance.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never said a B1 projects better than a B6. Both project very well. A B1 is more focused, a B6 is more broad - but you are going to be heard regardless.

The B1 as an orchestral trumpet is out of touch with the modern (last half century) Bach-229 based concept. That was merely an observation of historical perspective.

If you don't think a Schilke centers loose, spend an hour with a Bach 180 trying to match a bunch of out of tune amateur players - you will be exhausted. Do the same with a Schilke, and if you have the skill to control it, you wont even notice the effort. There is a night and day difference. I made the mistake of using a special B2 on Christmas Eve. I am not a strong enough player and there were intonation issues - with me, not the horn - because the horn leaves it to me to set that center. A Bach, tells you what it is going to be. I prefer a middle ground....... (Note the post above, another player like me who is at a point where it demands a bit too much precision to handle the intonation flexibility (centering) of a Schilke)
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:17 am    Post subject: Schilke B's Reply with quote

Hello all,
I think that this post covers pretty much all the characteristics found in the B series...with accuracy to the point of some personal opinions...Which I think are on mark. I want to add just one tidbit. I have a B3, which was fitted with a copper #3 bell back in the day. I bought it anyway, rather than looking for a B3 with the standard yellow brass bell. Since my B2 is of similar vintage, early 70's, as My B3, I can say that the copper bell is slightly less bright than the yellow brass bell. Taking in consideration of the larger bore on the B3 and the larger tuning slide of the B2, I am certain of my opinion, that the yellow brass is just that much lighter/brighter than copper. The copper has some added overtones. Now if you want even more core than the copper bell, play the S33HD. Same bell flare, different construction I believe. I played an Easter service yesterday...first time in public in over a year. Trumpet Voluntary for prelude on my P5-4. Hymns on my C3HD and second movement of the Haydn and a descant on my Schilke Eb soprano cornet. A year of Charlier and listening to Jim Wilt helped me stay in shape!
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I never said a B1 projects better than a B6. Both project very well. A B1 is more focused, a B6 is more broad - but you are going to be heard regardless.

)
"B6...less focused in projection". My experience has been that the B6 is more focused, a B1 is more broad. I can't think of any lead players who played B1's, except maybe Lynn Biviano. However, the B6 was used by Mike Vax when he played lead for Stan Kenton. Rigby Powell used a B6 when he played lead for Woody Herman. Bill Chase played a B6. And Jon Faddis played the B6 prior to the S42.

As far as the suggestion that the OP contact Schilke, I think that is a great idea. Also, now that travel restrictions have loosened up for those who are fully vaccinated, If the OP can find his way to Chicago, Schilke has a great conference room with most of their models on display for play testing. Although, perhaps with Covid, they may have temporarily suspended their policy, in years past I always found it easy to call them and schedule an appointment to drop by and test horns.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I never said a B1 projects better than a B6. Both project very well. A B1 is more focused, a B6 is more broad - but you are going to be heard regardless.

)
"B6...less focused in projection". My experience has been that the B6 is more focused, a B1 is more broad.


B6 has a #2 taper and is medium bore, so it is definitely not a huge horn. With the larger bell taper and ML bore on the B1, it has been my experience that a B1 is a very broad Bb.
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Usedtobegood
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry wrote:
adagiotrumpet wrote:
Of my B3's, I have one with a regular yellow brass bell, and one with the Beryllium bell and while their playing characteristics are quite similar, there is a noticeable difference in the sound and projection.

Would you describe the difference in sound and projection that you experience between your B3 and B3b?

Do you find that the lighter weight B3b projects further than the yellow brass B3?

Is it easier to get a "ring" in one over the other? (Yes, using words to describe sound might not be an effective way of communicating accurately.)

When do you use one over the other?

Thanks in advance.


I had both yellow brass and Beryllium belled B3’s and found the Beryllium to have more “splash” or more highs in the sound and recorded great when mic’d. But it didn’t have the same punch as the yellow brass bell at the back of the room. Others may have a different experience.
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ECLtmpt2
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
As far as the suggestion that the OP contact Schilke, I think that is a great idea. Also, now that travel restrictions have loosened up for those who are fully vaccinated, If the OP can find his way to Chicago, Schilke has a great conference room with most of their models on display for play testing. Although, perhaps with Covid, they may have temporarily suspended their policy, in years past I always found it easy to call them and schedule an appointment to drop by and test horns.[/quote]

When it came time to decide which 'B' series horn I wanted, I went to Chicago (Melrose) for 3 days and spent a lot of time in their conference 'demo' room play testing the various B series horns. (Called ahead to be sure I could come.) The B7 was the one that 'spoke' to me, my style, etc. I tried a couple of B7's to find 'my' horn. (Had to purchase from a certified dealer, pre-arranged.) This was around 2007.

Biggest mistake I ever made with horns was selling it last year.
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Aaronis
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you everyone for your facts and opinions regarding the Schilke horns. From all the replies, I'm glad I started this thread as it gave a lot of good information. I can easily see Schilke convo's will be plenty and thorough.

I think the main take away here for me is a lot of players have different experiences with these horns and there are many options in this line for someone who is looking to buy. I think having the ability to play several different models would definitely be ideal, but I think that's easier said than done, especially living in a city with no Schilke dealers and I'm for sure not going to that God forsaken place Chicago. haha.

Thanks all again, this has been very helpful.

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Dayton
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think having the ability to play several different models would definitely be ideal, but I think that's easier said than done, especially living in a city with no Schilke dealers and I'm for sure not going to that God forsaken place Chicago. haha.


When the time comes, consider a trip to a big trumpet-centric music store like Thompson Music in Omaha, NE or Austin Custom Brass in Kansas City, MO. You could contact them beforehand to see which Schilke models they have in stock.

That would give you the chance to compare whichever models are available and maximize the likelihood that you'll wind up with a horn that is a good fit for you.
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Aaronis
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
Quote:
I think having the ability to play several different models would definitely be ideal, but I think that's easier said than done, especially living in a city with no Schilke dealers and I'm for sure not going to that God forsaken place Chicago. haha.


When the time comes, consider a trip to a big trumpet-centric music store like Thompson Music in Omaha, NE or Austin Custom Brass in Kansas City, MO. You could contact them beforehand to see which Schilke models they have in stock.

That would give you the chance to compare whichever models are available and maximize the likelihood that you'll wind up with a horn that is a good fit for you.


Yep, I usually go to KC 1-2 times a year and plan to stop by Austin Custom Brass, but they are still appointment only and I would have to be able to walk in on my time. I plan on doing this as soon as they allow it. Thanks.
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F.E. Olds Nut
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I never said a B1 projects better than a B6. Both project very well. A B1 is more focused, a B6 is more broad - but you are going to be heard regardless.

The B1 as an orchestral trumpet is out of touch with the modern (last half century) Bach-229 based concept. That was merely an observation of historical perspective.


I disagree, with the above statement. I've owned almost every Schilke B series at one point and my own playing experience is opposite of that. The B1 has a large, wider sound, and the B6 plays more compact and direct.

Both horns can work well in any setting by a competent player, but the general tendencies are for the B1 to be a bigger sound, and the B6 to be more directional.

i'm just curious, how much experience do you have on Schilke instruments? Have you owned a B1 or a B6?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

F.E. Olds Nut wrote:
i'm just curious, how much experience do you have on Schilke instruments? Have you owned a B1 or a B6?


Own a B2 currently. Have played on a B6. But projection isn't about what it sounds like to the guy behind the bell, its what it sounds like in the room.

Our experiences clearly differ. When the guy on stage has B6, I can be at any angle, and the sound is there, solid. With a B1 in someone's hands, I can hear which way they are facing - though that is an admittedly small sample set compared to B6 which, in my experience, is more common in this application.
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Lawler Bb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Renold Schilke was first and foremost an orchestral trumpeter. The B1 is reflective of his personal preference.

The B6 is a very different horn - more flexible and adaptive, less focused in projection, but can fill the room with ease, (the bore diameter borders on a meaningless detail. It has zero effect on actual air flow, and is not different enough to significantly alter the way in which the instrument filters and amplifies). The high-copper bell can be more damping on the high end, but its taper and temper make for great flexibility.

Schilke horns are designed with a geometry that centers loose, allowing the player to adjust pitch center with great (or for some too much) ease. In that regard, they are the antithesis of an Elkhart Bach 180. An unaltered Mt. Vernon requires a one inch pull to be in tune and is more flexible centering than a 180, and similar to your Benge. If you take the difference between a 180 and Mt. Vernon as a yardstick, the difference from that to a Schilke B series is another 2-plus yards.

Of the pros I have known playing Schilke in a jazz setting, the B6 has been pretty much the model of choice - except for one B1 player for whom the genre was a secondary focus.


As along time Schilke owner and player, I am going to weigh in here because much of what has been said has not been my experience. I currently own a 1957 B1 prototype, several B2,s, several B3's, and an X3. I have owned in the past a B1, a B5, and a B6. I have played the B4 and B7. I currently play a B3 on a daily basis.

First of all, while Renold Schilke was "first and foremost an orchestral trumpeter" and the B1 was his personal favorite, the B1 would definitely not be my first choice to use in an orchestra.

I have never found the B1 to have better projection than a B6. In fact, I have found just the opposite. I have also never found Schilkes to "center loose".

I would also not consider that bore size "borders on a meaningless detail". I am not going to debate the differences in bore size based on some kind of mechanical air flow measurement. I will say this; that the playing characteristics between the B1 and B7 are significant, and the horns only differ by bore size. In my experience, the same applies for the B2 and B3, as well as the B5 and B6.

For playing lead, I have found the B2 and B3 to have the best focus and projection. For playing jazz, the B5, B6, B7 (similar in design to the medium bore Martin Committee and Bobby Shew Yamaha), and even the B1 would be my choice.

Also, as far as bell material is concerned, I believe the B5 and B6 have a regular weight solid copper bell. And if that isn't enough variety, any of the B series horns can be ordered with a "Beryllium Bell", which is actually a lightweight copper bell. Of my B3's, I have one with a regular yellow brass bell, and one with the Beryllium bell and while their playing characteristics are quite similar, there is a noticeable difference in the sound and projection.

The OP's inquiry was for the Schilke B series. Schilke also has additional series' that provide additional options. These include the "X" series, the "S" series, the "HD" series, and the "HC" series.


Agree 100%.
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Lawler Bb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I never said a B1 projects better than a B6. Both project very well. A B1 is more focused, a B6 is more broad - but you are going to be heard regardless.

The B1 as an orchestral trumpet is out of touch with the modern (last half century) Bach-229 based concept. That was merely an observation of historical perspective.

If you don't think a Schilke centers loose, spend an hour with a Bach 180 trying to match a bunch of out of tune amateur players - you will be exhausted. Do the same with a Schilke, and if you have the skill to control it, you wont even notice the effort. There is a night and day difference. I made the mistake of using a special B2 on Christmas Eve. I am not a strong enough player and there were intonation issues - with me, not the horn - because the horn leaves it to me to set that center. A Bach, tells you what it is going to be. I prefer a middle ground....... (Note the post above, another player like me who is at a point where it demands a bit too much precision to handle the intonation flexibility (centering) of a Schilke)


Nope. A B1 throws a wide, shimmering, and light (not dense) sound unless you are playing a commercial mouthpiece. You can gain some core when playing a commercial mouthpiece, but it’s going to be bright and pretty wide. It sounds good around you, though.

A B6 is noticeably more focused with more core and color. And a noticeably smaller blow.

The HD Schilkes slot very much like a standard Bach. The S series are slightly more flexible, the B series slightly more flexible than the S series. All of them slot better/tighter than a Benge or other vintage trumpets. Schilkes do have a slightly different pitch center than a Bach, with the notable differences being sharp 1st line Es and much more in tune 4th line Ds, etc.

I have a lot of time on a B1, B3, and B6, played an S42HD for a few years and currently own a S32. Also have time on the B5 and S32HD. Played Bachs for 25 years prior (mainly the 37, but also a 72* and 43*).
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To anyone reading this thread for advice:

Ignore the debates. (i think we may have different definitions of some terms)

Call Schilke, they are wise and helpful folks, who make great horns.

Then go somewhere you can try all of the makes/types/models that you care to, and take a skilled player (like your teacher) and a tuner with you.

Leak back varies tremendously with bell construction, so what you hear is not what the audience hears - particularly with regard to differences between horns. Have the person who comes with you provide objective feedback as to what it sounds like out there where it counts.

Next, have the person with you take a horn, and you take another, tune, and then you pull out the slide on your horn 1/8". Play something melodic in unison with the person who did not pull out the slide watching the tuner to make sure they don't start matching you. You then do all the work of matching pitch (bending away from the horn's pitch center). Do this with different horns and see which make you work harder to bring them into matching pitch. (remembering the converse that the same horn makes it easier for you to not drift off when tired)

Some people like a loose centering feel, some like a tight centering feel, some like focused projection, some like broad projection - what is best is what works for you
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Lawler Bb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
To anyone reading this thread for advice:

Ignore the debates.


You don't like the fact that you're being challenged, so just tell the OP to ignore all of the information/"clutter". What a great idea. How about not stating a bunch of misinformation and telling the OP that the rest of us are "clutter"?

Yes, calling Schilke is the best option. But, there are a few very experienced Schilke players chiming in here, including some who play for a living and know what they are talking about. I've been away from TH for awhile, and perhaps I should go back on hiatus......
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will just note that I am also a Schilke fan. My X3L with the Sandoval modifications is my favorite trumpet, very versiatile. Love it every time I pick it up. Sandoval played an X3L for a lot of his career.

Agree with contacting Schilke. They are very responsive.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I gotta say--and I see this flavor on here quite a lot--I find it hilarious when people flex their means. In this example, dude is recommending this guy basically fly him _and his trumpet teacher_ (!) to Chicago to play one of every model at the factory. Really? Take your valet, too, to make sure your shirts are pressed.

Second, of course if the guy could try out a bunch of horns he would. And, to call Schilke... that's good advice. But still, the guy's just looking for people's opinions of the horns on this forum. That's it.

Finally, here's my opinion: I like the b1 I play. B5 is a great horn, too. B6 is a little tighter blow. Those are the only three I've played. The B1 is slightly brighter than the B5, to my ear.

So there. If you have plenty of dough, or if the trumpet is your life's work/passion/whatev, then by all means, go try them everywhere and rack up your freq flier miles.

If you have some dough, but not exorbitantly so, find a B-whatever at a good price point, maybe pre-owned, and throw down for it. Play it and love playing it for a while.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
... In this example, dude is recommending this guy basically fly him _and his trumpet teacher_ (!) to Chicago to play one of every model at the factory. Really? Take your valet, too, to make sure your shirts are pressed...




I’ll have two more 2019s and call me when it’s 2022.

It could be months yet till your favorite manufacturer is able to open their doors to the curious and have them play every possible model (while the chauffeur is double parked outside).

Schilkes are all good in their own way. Buy one that’s reasonably priced and in your list of “maybe this is interesting”. Enjoy. If it’s not right for you it will be a gem for someone else.
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