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Bryant Jordan Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2015 Posts: 410 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:15 pm Post subject: What makes a bad horn bad? |
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Hi.
My question is, exactly what makes a bad horn bad? What are the actual differences between a Chinese horn bought off of ebay for $100 versus a Bach Strad (for example)?
I know valve alignment and CNC lathe precision and refinement when making the parts are super important. What else differentiates both horns? |
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jadickson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1294 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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how it's put together. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8335 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking as someone who isn't a tech, but has worked near techs who have to attempt to repair cheap horns, has done some minor repairs, and who has had students who have cheap horns (sometimes).
Not all are true for all horns, but here goes...
- The quality of the brass - and other metals - can be lower. I had a tech talk about it the metallurgy, but I can't remember the details he talked about. When you put a torch to it to solder on finger hook, the leadpipe starts to melt.
- The gauge of the brass can thinner. Now, this isn't always a bad thing, by itself. Benges sometimes had thinner brass components.
- The quality of the components is lower. The valve blocks aren't made with great precision. Threads aren't as precisely cut. Top and bottom caps don't fit perfectly. Cheap valve stems snap off when you remove the valve. Buttons snap off instead of unscrewing. Some of it goes in hand with low quality metal being used, but some of these are just poor machine work.
- Then there is the aforementioned assembly. The solder work on assembly is poor. Slides aren't aligned properly. Valves are poorly fitted - not a good when you combine it with lower quality plating or alloys that make up the valve itself.
- Finally, the plating or lacquering is usually subpar. There are Indian horns that are chrome plated, but I've seen even Chinese horns were the silver plating is flaking off.
Keep in mind, a horn sold for $100 DID NOT cost $100 to make. It's significantly less. Between material cost, labor cost, transportation cost, marketing cost, and most importantly, profit - a small fraction of the $100 was devoted to actually making the horn. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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jmock Regular Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2021 Posts: 31
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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I think one of the accusations leveled at some of the American made horns (of multiple makes) AFTER the LA Benges is that the soldering inside the horn can be sloppy too, and some players might not notice, but sloppy soldering can negatively affect the air flow, which would affect everything: how the notes slot as far as hitting the nice sounding "center" of the tone, pitch to a lesser degree, but how freely and easily the horn blows, etc.
There are even well made horns that due to machining tolerances (favoring younger players who might abuse them) will only ever play so well--as basically an intermediate or lower level pro instrument. I have one of those, and my very accomplished trumpet player buddy can easily tell the difference between that lower level horn (Kanstul "French Besson International USA" also with the K stamped on the bell) and the Kanstul 1500. Me--not so much except that I do notice the Kanstul 1500 is easier to play softly and the notes speak more freely.
The lower level Kanstul (the closest thing to a student model they made) does not have all the tubing perfectly aligned going into the valve block. It's well made--just some tubes are not parallel to their neighbors whereas on most well-made trumpets, they will be parallel. It's a quirk. Photos of these instruments, which are fairly common, show that many of them are that way. They are nice horns, and can really play pretty well with the right mouthpiece, but they do not play the same as a top level more costly trumpet. My mint condition example will remain the "emergency backup horn" and maybe my french horn playing wife will use it once in awhile on something in church that just doesn't fit french horn.
John _________________ Kanstul 1500
GR WB Classic mouthpiece
Last edited by jmock on Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 693 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Not just quality of material, which is very critical to sound, durability, longevity, and reliability, but proper working of the metal. When the metal is drawn into shape, stresses can remain and affect resonance and overall sound quality, as well as slotting properly etc.
Proper valve tolerance and alignment in all dimensions is critical, and I see many cheaply made horns with pistons that begin to develop a crusty black surface corrosion that will just plain not work after a year or 2.
There are many subtle differences between trumpet shaped objects and quality instruments. I have looked at a bunch of cheaply made instruments, and quality trumpets as well. Life is too short to waste time on cheap trumpets.
Maybe cheap flugelhorns, but not cheap trumpets. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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jmock Regular Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2021 Posts: 31
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't even buy a cheap flugelhorn, ever. I've found the pitch even on top level Courtois 154 flugelhorns (my wife and I had a pair of them which we used for a few wedding gigs) to be more difficult for me to control--especially during a fast switch away from trumpet to cold flugel in a church setting. That was not a good recipe...
Love the flugel sound, but I don't need to own one anymore.
Actually the GR FD trumpet mouthpiece is intriguing because it will give your trumpet that Chet Baker kind of mellow tone, to simulate flugelhorn. I might try one...
Sergei Nakariakov sounds absolutely phenomenal on his Courtois flugelhorns, so it must just be me the idiot that doesn't sound so good. They are very well made horns.
John _________________ Kanstul 1500
GR WB Classic mouthpiece |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8335 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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jmock wrote: | I think one of the accusations leveled at some of the American made horns (of multiple makes) AFTER the LA Benges is that the soldering inside the horn can be sloppy too... |
Honestly, I was talking about soldering on the outside. It's less that it's sloppy (though sometimes the case) and more that it's poorly done.
I'm sure cheap horns have sloppy solder on the inside as well, I've just never bothered to check, there are enough problems on the surface. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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jmock Regular Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2021 Posts: 31
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Crazy Finn--
Oh, I get what you were saying.
I played a UMI Benge 3X for awhile, and that is specifically one of the horns that allegedly had some soldering issues inside some of the horns, enough to affect the blow, though the outside could look very good indeed. It's one of the reasons the earlier Benge fans don't consider the UMI horns to be "real" Benges (though tuning is apparently similar). I liked my UMI Benge 3X, until the day I tried the last Kanstul F. Besson International USA trumpet at Sam Ash in King of Prussia. Wife's Uncle (Navy band veteran) heard me play and said trade for that horn if you can, so I did an even up trade plus a case and only owed like $75. I got one of the last ones Sam Ash ever sold new--a check of the website plus a couple phone calls revealed they were just gone. Mine was the store demo but was mint new.
John _________________ Kanstul 1500
GR WB Classic mouthpiece
Last edited by jmock on Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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OP may also have meant in the sense that some models have a reputation for being uneven. Many musicians will recommend trying multiple versions of the same horn if you can. I am not musically developed enough to be able to distinguish this, but for elite players they can distinguish differences. I don't know if this comes down to assembly or if there are other factors. |
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jmock Regular Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2021 Posts: 31
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Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Absolutely. Multiple horns of the same model and product run will not all play alike.
However in my experience most of the music stores I frequent do not have enough horns in stock to be able to try multiples of the same pro model--but I have done it on occasion--usually with a teacher that I trust.
John _________________ Kanstul 1500
GR WB Classic mouthpiece
Last edited by jmock on Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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krax Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2007 Posts: 684 Location: Hofors, Sweden
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:53 am Post subject: |
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jmock wrote: |
The lower level Kanstul (the closest thing to a student model they made) does not have all the tubing perfectly aligned going into the valve block. It's well made--just some tubes are not parallel to their neighbors whereas on most well-made trumpets, they will be parallel. It's a quirk. Photos of these instruments, which are fairly common, show that many of them are that way. They are nice horns, and can really play pretty well with the right mouthpiece, but they do not play the same as a top level more costly trumpet. My mint condition example will remain the "emergency backup horn" and maybe my french horn playing wife will use it once in awhile on something in church that just doesn't fit french horn.
John |
This is very evident in old Blessing trumpets. Some of those labelled "Standard" and most "National", they're very misaligned. Those labelled Artist are most often not. It's the same valve block. Apparently they made the valve blocks first and picked the best ones to the better models and used the inferior ones for the entry models. However, depending on demand, they had to use some of the good blocks to the entry models too, so buying a Blessing Standard today is a wild bet. You can get a great trumpet, but also a useless one. |
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spitvalve Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 2158 Location: Little Elm, TX
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:40 am Post subject: |
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I bought all the components to make an old horn into a lamp but ended up repairing the horn and selling it. I can buy one of those $100 Chinese horns with no dents and make an attractive lamp. I would never buy it to make music. _________________ Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:49 am Post subject: |
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It is rather simple.
Bad parts, bad design and bad assembly means a bad instrument.
Good parts, good design but bad assembly means a mediocre horn.
Good parts, good design and careful assembly means an excellent horn.
Very good parts, good to great design and perfect assembly means a truly great instrument.
Nothing will make a horrible horn play better.
Bad assembly can be redone by a good tech.
Excellent horns can be tweaked.
Great horns are just that.
R. Tomasek |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:55 am Post subject: |
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if you spend about $500 on a chinese horn, you are going to get a pretty good valve block, good design, and decent materials. The assembly will be aligned nice and straight.
where it might be lacking:
the receiver fit to the mouthpiece. Ive seen these be pretty wildly weird, and it affects the play. Sometimes easy to fix, sometimes no so easy
there are filler tubes missing in the lower tube that joins the main slide to the 3rd valve. If you insert a tube there (where most horns already have that filler tube) it plays way better. This is a dumb problem to allow, so easy to fix.
Soldering can leak. I think its because, like all mass producers, they remove excess solder with a chemical that dissolves solder of the outside, and that chemical can find its way into the joint and remove it there. I bought a 600 dollar flugel and it was nice but i found 6 leaking joints. That is crazy. They left it soaking too long, probably cuz it had some spot of solder on the outside that was extra problematic, and instead of hand scraping they just soaked it longer
Like i said, the valves are usually pretty good and honed right, and good action and compression. you can find $500 chinese horns that play quite good. _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:13 am Post subject: |
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The answer is relative
This thread has plenty of descriptions of garbage horns which fall into 2 categories: those that cannot be played decently by anyone, and those that fall apart.
At the next level however are horns that may be challenging to make sound good, but depending on one's skill level it may be possible. These are still bad horns, but not as bad.
Then there are horns that some people find easy to sound great on, but in terms of durability, repair is not possible due to parts not being available, or construction methods that make it cost-prohibitive.
After that, you start getting to horns that are quality, durable, construction, and that fit some players. At this level, what is a good horn for me, because its characteristics fit what I need to get the sound I want with the least effort, may be bad for you, because you work less with completely different characteristics (these include balance, weight, inertia, efficiency, perceived resistance, leak-back, feedback geometry, and tone-forming geometry). This is the category where the "best" horns are to be found by a player, but also where a lot that don't fit them will be found.
Finally, there is the level of "quality" where every horn is durable, and most everyone can sound pretty good, but not necessarily their best, with relative ease, but not necessarily the greatest ease, because these are built consistently and targeting the center of the bell curve with regard to favored characteristics in the market as a whole. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:17 am Post subject: |
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To sum it up, it simply comes down to design, materials and execution. _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8335 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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jmock wrote: | I played a UMI Benge 3X for awhile, and that is specifically one of the horns that allegedly had some soldering issues inside some of the horns, enough to affect the blow, though the outside could look very good indeed. It's one of the reasons the earlier Benge fans don't consider the UMI horns to be "real" Benges (though tuning is apparently similar). |
That's not why Benge fans don't consider UMI horns to be "real" Benges. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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CalicchioMan Veteran Member
Joined: 31 May 2004 Posts: 336 Location: Florida
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:09 pm Post subject: horns |
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Amen James!
Scott Wiltfang _________________ Yamaha 8310ZII
Yamaha 631G Flugelhorn
Mendini Superbone
Pickett Mouthpieces |
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Beyond16 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2020 Posts: 220 Location: Texas Gulf Coast
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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lipshurt wrote: | ...Soldering can leak. I think its because, like all mass producers, they remove excess solder with a chemical that dissolves solder of the outside, and that chemical can find its way into the joint and remove it there. I bought a 600 dollar flugel and it was nice but i found 6 leaking joints. That is crazy. They left it soaking too long, probably cuz it had some spot of solder on the outside that was extra problematic, and instead of hand scraping they just soaked it longer... |
I once bought a Suzuki Concertino trumpet used for $49. It was essentially new. The machining was excellent. Pressure testing showed perfect valve seal, but two tubing leaks. The leaks were due to (lack of) solder. I imagined that visible solder would result in a rash of suicides at the China factory, so employees learned to minimize solder quantity. Clearly no QA besides visual inspection.
One reason I bought it was because of the .530 bore claim. As you might guess, they measured slide tubing OD and not ID! Bore is .462. So clearly no brass aware folks were involved in this outsourced product. I fixed the leaks and sold it.
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1887 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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spitvalve wrote: | I bought all the components to make an old horn into a lamp but ended up repairing the horn and selling it. I can buy one of those $100 Chinese horns with no dents and make an attractive lamp. I would never buy it to make music. |
I have been thinking about doing that, but ...
An old friend had a trumpet made into a lamp, and the 2nd valve was the switch. I won't build one until I can figure out how to do that.
Ideas? _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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