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thickeyjr
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Joined: 13 May 2021
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Location: Phoenix
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 Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 10:59 pm Post subject: Cleaning Brass Instruments with PBW |
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Hi all,
I am new to the forum and have enjoyed all the information available here. This is my first post. I did a search and did not find anything. I am getting back into trumpet after MANY years way. One of the hobbies I developed during the gap is homebrewing. One of the best cleaners for stainless steel, copper, plastic and glass vessels is called PBW by Five Star. It is an alkaline cleaner and works particularly well on organic crud. I am curious if anyone has used it to clean brass instruments that have been sitting for a while. The active ingredients are sodium metasilicate and sodium hydroxide, but the concentration is pretty low.
My apologies in advance if my first post is blasphemy... |
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm....
I'm familiar with PBW as my buddy is a homebrewer and I dabble. Don't drink my English mild, though, because something went weird with that fermentation. Anyway....
Brass is 2/3 copper and 1/2 zinc, roughly - theoretically. So, if it's used to clean copper, the real question is how does zinc react to it.
I have no real answers, just this thought. I'm hope some knowledgeable techs will chime in.
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yourbrass
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 7:17 am Post subject: |
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It would make an interesting experiment. Try it on dirty brass or copper, such as a cruddy looking penny. Look closely afterward w/a loupe or magnifying glass to check for pitting.
Let us know.
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thickeyjr
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Joined: 13 May 2021
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Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 9:23 am Post subject: Thanks for the feedback. |
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| I will try with a penny and post back. |
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Tpt_Guy
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | | Brass is 2/3 copper and 1/2 zinc, roughly - theoretically. |
You may want to fix those proportions.
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Tpt_Guy wrote: | | Crazy Finn wrote: | | Brass is 2/3 copper and 1/2 zinc, roughly - theoretically. |
You may want to fix those proportions. |
Maybe this explains?
| Crazy Finn wrote: | | I'm familiar with PBW as my buddy is a homebrewer and I dabble. |
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | | Brass is 2/3 copper and 1/2 zinc, roughly - theoretically. |
| Tpt_Guy wrote: | | You may want to fix those proportions. |
Nah, I'll leave my trumpet math as it is....
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Tpt_Guy
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | | Crazy Finn wrote: | | Brass is 2/3 copper and 1/2 zinc, roughly - theoretically. |
| Tpt_Guy wrote: | | You may want to fix those proportions. |
Nah, I'll leave my trumpet math as it is.... |
Maybe math like this is the origin of ultra-heavy trumpets. 
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Goldplate
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| That sounds like red rot resistant brass. |
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Liberty Lips
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Joined: 12 Dec 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 8:51 am Post subject: |
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I don't think PBW would work all that well cleaning trumpets. It's excellent for soaking out organic deposits like ossified yeast, however, it would have no effect on calcified mineral deposits and verdigris (copper oxidation). Also, for PBW to be effective, the whole instrument would have to be submerged in it for at least an hour.
Oxyclean is similar to PBW, without the sodium metasilicate. If there are organic deposits in your trumpet, which I believe is pretty unusual, oxyclean would probably be just as effective as PBW and much less expensive. Still, it would make more sense just to have your horn professionally chem-cleaned or sonic-cleaned, as those procedures would remove organic deposits in addition to the calcifications and corrosion deposits. |
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falado
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Hi, Dawn dish detergent, white vinegar, water. I don't remember the proportions, but any mixture of the, mostly water, couldn't hurt. I used to keep a 5 gallon bucket of this solution with a sealing cover and dip my horns and parts when cleaning them. This is what a lot of brass techs use and I'm sure someone can give the ratios.
Dave
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dstpt
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| falado wrote: | Hi, Dawn dish detergent, white vinegar, water. I don't remember the proportions, but any mixture of the, mostly water, couldn't hurt. I used to keep a 5 gallon bucket of this solution with a sealing cover and dip my horns and parts when cleaning them. This is what a lot of brass techs use and I'm sure someone can give the ratios.
Dave |
According to the trumpet math in this thread, the proper proportions would be 2/3 to 1/2, divided equally between the three components.  |
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dstpt
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| dstpt wrote: | | falado wrote: | Hi, Dawn dish detergent, white vinegar, water. I don't remember the proportions, but any mixture of the, mostly water, couldn't hurt. I used to keep a 5 gallon bucket of this solution with a sealing cover and dip my horns and parts when cleaning them. This is what a lot of brass techs use and I'm sure someone can give the ratios.
Dave |
According to the trumpet math in this thread, the proper proportions would be 2/3 to 1/2, divided equally between the three components. |
Truthfully, though, I've always heard it was ⅓ Dawn and ⅔ white vinegar (with no added water), but maybe I heard wrong from the start. I've also heard a brass tech or two call it the "Scodwell Solution," since Tony has mentioned it a few times on TH. It works well to remove oxidation from raw brass and bronze sections/parts, but don't let your hands sit in it long. I shared this formula recently with a fella who got to analyzing all of the details of its effects on a raw brass horn off and on during the hour or so process, and he allowed his hands to be exposed way too long without washing and rinsing this acidic formula off. He sent me pictures of his hands pealing! They didn't look pretty.
Oh, and I've used this formula many times over the past year or so after learning about it. Works great! (But I'm sure there's something wrong with it for certain applications.) |
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yourbrass
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Joined: 12 Jun 2011
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Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| dstpt wrote: | | dstpt wrote: | | falado wrote: | Hi, Dawn dish detergent, white vinegar, water. I don't remember the proportions, but any mixture of the, mostly water, couldn't hurt. I used to keep a 5 gallon bucket of this solution with a sealing cover and dip my horns and parts when cleaning them. This is what a lot of brass techs use and I'm sure someone can give the ratios.
Dave |
According to the trumpet math in this thread, the proper proportions would be 2/3 to 1/2, divided equally between the three components. :D |
Truthfully, though, I've always heard it was ⅓ Dawn and ⅔ white vinegar (with no added water), but maybe I heard wrong from the start. I've also heard a brass tech or two call it the "Scodwell Solution," since Tony has mentioned it a few times on TH. It works well to remove oxidation from raw brass and bronze sections/parts, but don't let your hands sit in it long. I shared this formula recently with a fella who got to analyzing all of the details of its effects on a raw brass horn off and on during the hour or so process, and he allowed his hands to be exposed way too long without washing and rinsing this acidic formula off. He sent me pictures of his hands pealing! They didn't look pretty.
Oh, and I've used this formula many times over the past year or so after learning about it. Works great! (But I'm sure there's something wrong with it for certain applications.) |
@dstpt
I'm curious if you have tried it on a leadpipe that has lots of corrosion, i.e., one that's been neglected for years.
-Lionel
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dstpt
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Joined: 14 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| yourbrass wrote: | | dstpt wrote: | ...Truthfully, though, I've always heard it was ⅓ Dawn and ⅔ white vinegar (with no added water), but maybe I heard wrong from the start. I've also heard a brass tech or two call it the "Scodwell Solution," since Tony has mentioned it a few times on TH. It works well to remove oxidation from raw brass and bronze sections/parts, but don't let your hands sit in it long. I shared this formula recently with a fella who got to analyzing all of the details of its effects on a raw brass horn off and on during the hour or so process, and he allowed his hands to be exposed way too long without washing and rinsing this acidic formula off. He sent me pictures of his hands pealing! They didn't look pretty.
Oh, and I've used this formula many times over the past year or so after learning about it. Works great! (But I'm sure there's something wrong with it for certain applications.) |
@dstpt
I'm curious if you have tried it on a leadpipe that has lots of corrosion, i.e., one that's been neglected for years.
-Lionel |
Lionel, I bought a nearly 30yo Straub B-flat tpt from Mike Thomas at Burbank Tpts this past Nov. It looked to be in great shape sans the patina and grungy slides. Mike told me he had gotten it directly from Franz Straub while doing a trade show in Germany, but he eventually navigated to another horn of choice, and this horn had just been sitting in a case for a number of years. Once oiled, the valves worked great, but the 1st and 3rd slides had a ways to go. I first cleaned it with Dawn and very warm running water, using a snake down the bell, leadpipe, lower leg, and all slides. I had already dissembled the valves prior to cleaning, and after cleaning, soaked all of the valves, slides, and misc. small parts in a small container with this solution. For soaking the body of the horn, I have a larger bin that I use, but I've filled in a goodly portion of the bin with packing material and lined it with two large, black trash bags to minimize actual space needed to cover up to a flugelhorn with the solution. (Hope that makes sense.) I have looked online and at Walmart for just the right size for soaking horns but have yet to find the smallest possible size that will still accommodate up to a flugel in size, but have not found one, so I just fill in the unneeded space of a large plastic storage bin and line with plastic to reduce the amount of white vinegar and Dawn needed. I have used other dishwashing liquid brands with equal success, btw. I always try to get the horn as clean as possible before soaking, so that I can reuse the same solution.
After soaking for about an hour, I removed and rinsed using some Dawn again with very warm water to be sure I removed all trace of the solution. Then I took my Swab-Its rifle swab and ran it down the bell through the bell tail all the way into the 1st valve casing and back out...and the swab turned orange!!! Ugh! I mean, this horn had some serious oxidation on the inside. The leadpipe was not too bad, but the 3rd slide had some serious orange in it.
I guess this would be interpreted by a brass tech such as yourself as early stages of red rot (separation of the zinc from the copper in the brass), but I continued to soak this puppy a total of three times with no complete resolution in sight. I had planned to have it lacquered, and that brass tech assured me that he’d use a chemical process to remove all of the oxidation, inside and out. I did not want him to use a sonic cleaner due to discussions I had with a custom builder overseas who was convinced that they affect solder joints on a micro level. (Enter defenders of sonic cleaners now.) Anyway, it took this tech 3-4 chemical soaks (each soak only 2-3 minutes in duration), but he finally got all of the orange out. So, I guess that tells you that the Dawn/White Vinegar solution has its limits and very likely might not be fully effective on your aged leadpipe in question.
The Swab-Its swab I use says it's a "pull-through" swab, but you can also push it down the bell and slides:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SK4F2CY?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details
At the end of each day:
I use and reuse the same SpitBall, freshly dipped in the alcohol in the container, and my Swab-Its swab to swab out the leadpipe and tuning slide. Again, I use Dawn to clean the same spitball and swab end. I find these durable and very much reusable. |
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yourbrass
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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No, I was just asking because I use muriatic (hydrochloric) acid for corroded parts cleaning and it's very effective, used correctly. But I'm always interested in other formulas. Sonic cleaning isn't great at removing corrosion. It's great at removing and cleaning grease, such as buffing grease from the factory on a new horn.
I've experienced your "orange water", usually on nickel french horn slides that are really funky. You have to scrub and rinse repeatedly until the water runs clear, then that's it.
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dstpt
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Posts: 1289
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| yourbrass wrote: | No, I was just asking because I use muriatic (hydrochloric) acid for corroded parts cleaning and it's very effective, used correctly. But I'm always interested in other formulas. Sonic cleaning isn't great at removing corrosion. It's great at removing and cleaning grease, such as buffing grease from the factory on a new horn.
I've experienced your "orange water", usually on nickel french horn slides that are really funky. You have to scrub and rinse repeatedly until the water runs clear, then that's it. |
Yeah, I think you pretty much have to bring out the "big guns" in chemicals when it comes to removing years of corrosion, but the Dawn/White Vinegar solution works great on brightening/restoring aged brass & bronze, especially if you don't prefer a patina look. Like Tony has said, even the valve balusters and ports look new. I also use Bar Keepers Friend (BKF) when I don't want to soak parts in that solution. It requires less elbow grease than Brasso, which I had used for years to polish raw brass slides, and it is cheaper. The liquid version for Stainless Steel works fine on raw brass/bronze/copper. |
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thickeyjr
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:35 pm Post subject: PBW Update |
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| I heard back from Five Star Chemicals. They said that PBW should NOT be used for cleaning instruments. Not a total surprise, but good to get confirmation. |
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trickg
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:57 am Post subject: Re: PBW Update |
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| thickeyjr wrote: | | I heard back from Five Star Chemicals. They said that PBW should NOT be used for cleaning instruments. Not a total surprise, but good to get confirmation. |
That's more than likely just their legal team covering their butts - they don't want to get sued. I'd be willing to bet that anyone asking them a question about using the product for anything other than it's designated reason is going to receive a "no" in response.
I've never done anything beyond mild dish detergent and water, with the exception of using toothpaste on slides. If I feel my horns need additional TLC, I send them to a tech to be professionally chem cleaned. This has worked well for me for about 40 years and I see no reason to change anything now.
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| Tpt_Guy wrote: | | Crazy Finn wrote: | | Brass is 2/3 copper and 1/2 zinc, roughly - theoretically. |
You may want to fix those proportions. |
It looks like he learned math from Yogi Berra! 
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