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PNut Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2021 Posts: 114 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 6:58 am Post subject: Refurbishing VS Reconditioned (Pros Only Please) |
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I just realized there is a difference between the terms Refurbishing and Reconditioned.
I want to make sure my ad for my 1955 Olds Ambassador is not misleading.
Professional Opinions only please.
Here's what I've done since purchasing the trumpet. Please tell me if it's one or the other? Thx.
- Soldered off the main tuning slide crook to release the slide.
- Penetrating oil to help remove the above and remainder slides.
- Chemically cleaned the trumpet.
- Thoroughly washed trumpet w snake warm water and Dawn dish soap.
- Dried thoroughly.
- Buffed the tuning slides with compound and wick by hand.
- Soldered the crook back on the main tuning slide.
- Fixed a stuck piston valve.
- Cleaned piston valves and casings.
- Disassembled piston valves, to clean, and reassemble.
- Fixed water key and replaced corks.
- Removed old remaining lacquer with Feree's gel remover. (Excellent stuff)
- Washed and dried again.
- Properly buffed entire external trumpet, some by hand.
- Polished entire trumpet, except tuning slide inserts.
- Purchased new Yamaha TR11B4 mouthpiece.
- Oiled piston valves.
- Greased slides.
- Reassembled trumpet.
- Tested for leaks.
- Play tested by local trumpet player. (I play alto sax)
- No dent removal bc. the few are so tiny. _________________ Gotta Love Music |
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Shawnino Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2020 Posts: 255
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Refurbished is 'as new'.
You write:
- No dent removal bc. the few are so tiny.
so that's not refurbished. |
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PNut Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2021 Posts: 114 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:24 am Post subject: |
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Shawnino wrote: | Refurbished is 'as new'.
You write:
- No dent removal bc. the few are so tiny.
so that's not refurbished. |
Thx for the clarification!
I guess in the tech world it might mean the opposite. It's why I asked.
https://techcitytimes.com/reconditioned-vs-refurbished/ _________________ Gotta Love Music |
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Shawnino Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2020 Posts: 255
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Thing is, they have been used interchangeably (wrongly) so muchthe distinction has been lost.
Better, if you can/have space, is to properly detail all the work you've done.
Customer can call it whatever he likes. |
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PNut Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2021 Posts: 114 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Shawnino wrote: | Thing is, they have been used interchangeably (wrongly) so muchthe distinction has been lost.
Better, if you can/have space, is to properly detail all the work you've done.
Customer can call it whatever he likes. |
Ah, good idea! _________________ Gotta Love Music |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 8:35 am Post subject: |
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reconditioned to proper playing condition.
condition: used excellent ready to play, raw brass finnish _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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PNut Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2021 Posts: 114 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 9:14 am Post subject: |
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lipshurt wrote: | reconditioned to proper playing condition.
condition: used excellent ready to play, raw brass finnish |
Yes, that does make things clearer. _________________ Gotta Love Music |
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PNut Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2021 Posts: 114 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 9:31 am Post subject: |
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So if a trumpet is restored:
- All of the above and...
- All dents removed.
- Piston valves & casings honed, and sized.
- New springs, corks, and felts.
- Red-rot parts replaced with new tubing.
- Re-lacquered or Silver / Nickel plated.
Am I missing anything? _________________ Gotta Love Music |
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Beyond16 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2020 Posts: 220 Location: Texas Gulf Coast
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Refurbishing VS Reconditioned (Pros Only Please) |
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PNut wrote: | ... Professional Opinions only please.
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I washed dishes professionally in the 1970's, so happy to help. I have never worked in a music related field, so my opinions are not clouded by pesky annoyances like profitability and putting food on the table.
Quote: | reconditioned, refurbished, restored... |
Just words when selling something. Like a 'rebuilt' transmission for your car. Better off with a salvaged one that's never been opened.
I personally won't buy a horn that mentions anything to do with reconditioned, refurbished, restored. Too often the quality or type of work is not what I am looking for. Sometimes a seller has to prioritize cosmetics over function. Like buffing valves for good pictures, at the expense of increased leakage. The best vintage horn is a closet queen, new old stock, time capsule, recovered lost inventory.
Quote: | Piston valves & casings honed, and sized |
Deal breaker for me. In my opinion removing metal from the valve casing or piston is not the way to solve a valve problem.
Quote: | Chemically cleaned the trumpet |
This is a negative for me, as acid eats metal. But it's a plus for others. Not sure if mentioning it is good or bad.
Replacement springs often give a less linear force than originals. Olds put a great effort into minimizing the valve open-close force difference.
Quote: | Fixed a stuck piston valve |
Yikes, hope it wasn't a casing dent or bent valve.
Excellent!
Selling musical instruments when you are both knowledgeable and honest puts you at a disadvantage to many other sellers. I listed a King Silver Sonic cornet on ebay for a long time without selling. This was because I explained how the valves have enough wear to see play in the valve stems. It played fine, but I can't be happy with that much valve wear (or maybe excessive buffing by a previous refurbisher?). I saved the sterling silver bell and am looking for a donor horn with good valves. |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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Great post by Beyond16. I am a retired pro teacher of law so maybe I am allowed to chime in. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12699 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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I cooked donuts professionally at one time so here are my two cents.
It seems as if you are doing the work yourself. If you are a pro that is probably ok, but if not, I probably would not be interested or certainly not at a premium price.
If the listing uses the terms reconditioned or refurbished my first question would be by who?
I also am not interested in raw brass so stripping and buffing are not a plus for me. |
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PNut Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2021 Posts: 114 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 2:03 am Post subject: |
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Thx for everyone's professional opinions! So many techs. Wow!
I too worked professionally as a:
paperboy
snow shoveler
shoe salesman
dishwasher
waiter, cook
delivery driver
restaurant manager
autoparts clerk
insect control manager
semi-truck driver
railway welder
hazardous chemical worker
trade college student - 1 year
university student - 6 years
teacher - too long. LOL! _________________ Gotta Love Music |
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harryjamesworstnightmare Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2010 Posts: 168
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 6:37 am Post subject: |
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Don't use either of those terms. Just list the horn and any defects. Tell whether it plays well, show pictures of the valves and mention any dents and if there is any missing lacquer or plating. If anyone lists a horn as Refurbished or Reconditioned and their name is not Rich Ita, Charlie Melk, or Josh Landress I steer clear. _________________ Brian James
-------------------------
King Super 20 Symphony
Bach Strad 43 Sterling Silver Plus
Getzen Proteus
Yamaha 6335HS
Olds Super
Olds Mendez
Getzen Custom 3850 Cornet
Conn 80A
Getzen Eterna Flugelhorn |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1289
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theslawdawg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 843 Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 7:29 am Post subject: |
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harryjamesworstnightmare wrote: | Don't use either of those terms. Just list the horn and any defects. Tell whether it plays well, show pictures of the valves and mention any dents and if there is any missing lacquer or plating. If anyone lists a horn as Refurbished or Reconditioned and their name is not Rich Ita, Charlie Melk, or Josh Landress I steer clear. |
Yep. I agree with Harry.
Also, please see comments below:
- Soldered off the main tuning slide crook to release the slide. Repair.
- Penetrating oil to help remove the above and remainder slides. Part of the repair.
- Chemically cleaned the trumpet. Maintenance.
- Thoroughly washed trumpet w snake warm water and Dawn dish soap. Maintenance.
- Dried thoroughly. Maintenance.
- Buffed the tuning slides with compound and wick by hand. Maintenance.
- Soldered the crook back on the main tuning slide. Repair.
- Fixed a stuck piston valve. Repair.
- Cleaned piston valves and casings. Maintenance.
- Disassembled piston valves, to clean, and reassemble. Maintenance.
- Fixed water key and replaced corks. Repair and maintenance.
- Removed old remaining lacquer with Feree's gel remover. (Excellent stuff). Refurbished.
- Washed and dried again. Maintenance.
- Properly buffed entire external trumpet, some by hand. Maintenance.
- Polished entire trumpet, except tuning slide inserts. Maintenance.
- Purchased new Yamaha TR11B4 mouthpiece. Noted.
- Oiled piston valves. Maintenance.
- Greased slides. Maintenance.
- Reassembled trumpet. Implied.
- Tested for leaks. Implied.
- Play tested by local trumpet player. (I play alto sax). Noted.
- No dent removal bc. the few are so tiny. Noted. _________________ My go-to Trumpet and Flugel: Thane.
Greg Black MPs |
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PNut Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2021 Posts: 114 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 9:20 am Post subject: |
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harryjamesworstnightmare wrote: | Don't use either of those terms. Just list the horn and any defects. Tell whether it plays well, show pictures of the valves and mention any dents and if there is any missing lacquer or plating. If anyone lists a horn as Refurbished or Reconditioned and their name is not Rich Ita, Charlie Melk, or Josh Landress I steer clear. |
That is really good advice.
Being mechanically inclined like my dad, when I came across this '55 Olds I was amazed in how good shape it was, so I watched many YouTube videos of Art's Brass and Woodwind Shop, and others before even considering trying to work on such a vintage horn.
Art is very thorough, explains things clearly, and is responsive to questions.
https://www.youtube.com/c/TheBrassandWoodwindShop
Wes Lee is another good one.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuppULfQv9Zl0Xu11HB-HUw
Matt Sohrer's videos were essential for my saxophone. I can now do most things on my own.
We all have to start somewhere. I was rather proud of the work done. As Art always says in his videos, "Slow and steady with a lot of patience." _________________ Gotta Love Music |
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PNut Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2021 Posts: 114 Location: Canada
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 9:23 am Post subject: |
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theslawdawg wrote: | harryjamesworstnightmare wrote: | Don't use either of those terms. Just list the horn and any defects. Tell whether it plays well, show pictures of the valves and mention any dents and if there is any missing lacquer or plating. If anyone lists a horn as Refurbished or Reconditioned and their name is not Rich Ita, Charlie Melk, or Josh Landress I steer clear. |
Yep. I agree with Harry.
Also, please see comments below:
- Soldered off the main tuning slide crook to release the slide. Repair.
- Penetrating oil to help remove the above and remainder slides. Part of the repair.
- Chemically cleaned the trumpet. Maintenance.
- Thoroughly washed trumpet w snake warm water and Dawn dish soap. Maintenance.
- Dried thoroughly. Maintenance.
- Buffed the tuning slides with compound and wick by hand. Maintenance.
- Soldered the crook back on the main tuning slide. Repair.
- Fixed a stuck piston valve. Repair.
- Cleaned piston valves and casings. Maintenance.
- Disassembled piston valves, to clean, and reassemble. Maintenance.
- Fixed water key and replaced corks. Repair and maintenance.
- Removed old remaining lacquer with Feree's gel remover. (Excellent stuff). Refurbished.
- Washed and dried again. Maintenance.
- Properly buffed entire external trumpet, some by hand. Maintenance.
- Polished entire trumpet, except tuning slide inserts. Maintenance.
- Purchased new Yamaha TR11B4 mouthpiece. Noted.
- Oiled piston valves. Maintenance.
- Greased slides. Maintenance.
- Reassembled trumpet. Implied.
- Tested for leaks. Implied.
- Play tested by local trumpet player. (I play alto sax). Noted.
- No dent removal bc. the few are so tiny. Noted. |
Yes, that does clarify proper terms. Thx! _________________ Gotta Love Music |
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