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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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 Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:15 pm Post subject: Selmer Radial: ML vs. L vs. XL |
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I've got a ML bore Selmer Radial that I acquired several months ago. It's steadily become on of my favorite horns as it's just easy to play.
Sometimes, though, it doesn't feel super free blowing, which is something I like to a degree. I'm sure I'll keep this one, as it was inexpensive and a bit worn as a backup horn or teaching horn at the least. It's just easy and fun.
However, I was just curious how the Large and XL bore Radials played in comparison. Who knows, maybe I'll run into one somewhere down the line...
So, please share thoughts if you have some...
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supportlivejazz
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Joined: 05 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Do you know what the actual bore measurements are for the three bore sizes? Thanks.
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Conn 6B
1940s Blessing Artist
Olds LA Special Model Cornet
"I'm not apologizing, I am what I am. There'll be no compromising, I don't give a damn." |
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Oncewasaplayer
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Joined: 24 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Selmer radial:
I've found some numbers on the bores yet they have minor disagreements.
Unnumbered = 462 bore with a really large bell flare.
75 = 464 bore and smaller bell shape
99 = 468/470 bore with a bigger flare than the 75 but not as big the unnumbered models
I also found these numbers:
"66" means that the bore is 11.66 mm (so ML) --.459
"75" means 11.75 mm (so L) -- .462
"99" means 11.99 mm (XL) -- .472
(Those are my conversions from mm to inches)
My radial is unnumbered and has a nice open blow. Not sure I'd want a larger bore version.
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Last edited by Oncewasaplayer on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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supportlivejazz
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Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 3757
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Oncewasaplayer wrote: | Selmer radial:
Unnumbered = 462 bore with a really large bell flare.
75 = 464 bore and smaller bell shape
99 = 468/470 bore with a bigger flare than the 75 but not as big the unnumbered models
My radial is unnumbered and has a nice open blow. Not sure I'd want a larger bore version. |
Thanks... Mine is unnumbered, measures at .462" and does indeed have a very large bell flare / diameter. Interesting that the extra large flare was only used on the middle size bore. I too find the .462 bore open, but not huge. Just about right and I would not want it larger either. Curious too.
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Conn 6B
1940s Blessing Artist
Olds LA Special Model Cornet
"I'm not apologizing, I am what I am. There'll be no compromising, I don't give a damn."
Last edited by supportlivejazz on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 8335
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know for sure, but from what I've read
"66" is ML = 11.66 mm or 0.459 in
"75" is L = 11.75 mm / 0.62 (0.46259 to be exact)
"99" is XL and there is some dispute whether it's 11.99 mm which would be 0.472 or whether it's 0.468 as stated in some Selmer Paris literature.
My Radial has no marking on it at all. It must be from an earlier era or it might be the unnumbered one.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
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Bach 184L Bb Cornet
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VetPsychWars
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 7196
Location: Greenfield WI
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Selmer Radial: ML vs. L vs. XL |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: |
Sometimes, though, it doesn't feel super free blowing, which is something I like to a degree. |
I thought I would too but after playing one for a couple hours (my Model 217 Lightweight 400), it tires me out a lot, which is why I made an effort to find a tighter horn that sounded the same (my Model 228 Lightweight 400).
So I guess my question is you don't have problems playing more open horns for long periods?
Tom
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: Selmer Radial: ML vs. L vs. XL |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: |
Sometimes, though, it doesn't feel super free blowing, which is something I like to a degree. |
| VetPsychWars wrote: | | So I guess my question is you don't have problems playing more open horns for long periods? |
Back when I played a lot, no - not that I could tell. It took a bit to get used to, but once I did, I was fine.
The most open blow horn I've played was a Bach184L that was hand picked from a bunch by a fellow in the Finnish brass septet I play in from time to time. The first one that was picked was by Dave Baldwin, and I guess it's really a great horn. This was the second.
I remember that it always felt very free and open, even in the upper register. Ever time I picked up after a while, it was always ... "hooh, need more air." But, I'd adjust and get more efficient.
Once on tour in Europe, I had a day where we practiced for about an hour or a so in the morning. We then had an afternoon gig. That evening we had another gig - a full concert, plus a dance music set. Then, since the other band that was playing didn't have one of their cornet players show up, they asked me to play on their set, and I did. I closed with one more set with my group. I was pretty toasted by the end of the night, but it was about 5 or so hours of playing. That was all on that Bach 184L.
I'm no way in that sort of shape right now, or have been for several years. But, if I put the time in, I could be - I'd think.
The one thing was, the upper register stayed very open. You could just sing up there. But, if you were a bit tired, it could be a bit tough to get up there.
My current 184L is not the same horn, as previously mentioned one was never owned by me, personally. I just used it for about 8-9 years. It's not as open as the other, though that might not be a bad thing.
As far as the Selmer, sometimes it seems like it doesn't want as much air as I can and sometimes want to put in to it. Also, the upper register backs up a hair, maybe. I'm not really in good enough shape to tell for sure.
| Oncewasaplayer wrote: | | My radial is unnumbered and has a nice open blow. Not sure I'd want a larger bore version. |
| supportlivejazz wrote: | Unnumbered = 462 bore with a really large bell flare.
... Mine is unnumbered, measures at .462" and does indeed have a very large bell flare / diameter. Interesting that the extra large flare was only used on the middle size bore. I too find the .462 bore open, but not huge. Just about right and I would not want it larger either. Curious too. |
Are all the unnumbered ones the ones with bigger bell flare? I look at it and can't really say I can tell anything for sure.
It's possible it needs an alignment or maybe the gap or something is off.
Nice horn, though.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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supportlivejazz
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Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 3757
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure. I had one other Radial. It did not have as large a bell, but I don't know what bore it was. This one is definitely unmarked, .462" bore and large bell flare.
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Conn 6B
1940s Blessing Artist
Olds LA Special Model Cornet
"I'm not apologizing, I am what I am. There'll be no compromising, I don't give a damn." |
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krax
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Joined: 22 Apr 2007
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Location: Hofors, Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| I have played a 99 and a 75. They were very similar, but also different. Actually, the differences were exactly those that I had suspected becuse of the different bore sizes. The 99 had a broader sound and was very free-blowing. The 75 had the same basic sound but with more edge to it and it was easier to control. |
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p76
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Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 1070
Location: The Golden City of OZ
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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I've got a 99, and it's a very free blowing horn, and has never backed up on me, although I'm no high-note junkie (top out at an E on a good day).
Agree with krax that the 99 is a very broad sounding horn, and I struggle a little with pitch on it from time-to-time, which is possibly partly a mpc gap issue and me being used to smaller horns.
Cheers,
Roger
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Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel |
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stumac
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 697
Location: Flinders, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:19 am Post subject: |
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I have just measured my Radials, taken several measurements across each leg of 2nd valve slide and averaged the results, the tubes not being uniformly round.
Bb not marked sn 636xx Bore 0.460", Bell 5.05" dia.
C 99 sn 658xx Bore 0.465", Bell5.15" dia.
Also for interest my other 2 Radials,
D unmarked sn 772xx Bore 0.435", Bell 4.51"
Eb unmarked sn 579xx Bore 0.413", bell 4.53".
Regards, Stuart. |
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supportlivejazz
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Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 3757
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Unmarked.. .462" bore measured with micrometer, top and bottom tubes, 2nd valve slide. Bell is just barely over 5"... I mean maybe a 16th of an inch... maybe.
Also, I am going to have the leadpipe replaced because I am really enjoying this horn in this configuration. Plays easily, not too bright and seems to have a pretty good range as I change mouthpieces.. and sounds fine with my favorite ones. I find it to be a very nice small combo horn .. and that's what I like.
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Conn 6B
1940s Blessing Artist
Olds LA Special Model Cornet
"I'm not apologizing, I am what I am. There'll be no compromising, I don't give a damn." |
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Andy Del
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2665
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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My 99 radial measures .468 on the equipment I have. FWIW, this is the horn that gets the response 'Bud' if I drag it out of hibernation to play. For $130 in 1977, it was a pretty good investment.
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lipshurt
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Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 2642
Location: vista ca
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2021 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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I got an unmarked radial last summer and I liked it a lot.
It was a 1971 unmarked Bb, with the big bell, and 463 bore.
I wanted another one and just got it. It is from 1972, big bell, and it’s 460 bore. I like it, and it’s basically new-old stock. Barely played.
The Venturi on the 463 bore is .351
The Venturi on the 460 bore is .354
I would say they both feel the same size, but the 460 bore is more brilliant.
The 460 has a bit better intonation , but the 463 bore has really good intonation too.
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