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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 6:33 am Post subject: Lifelong musician, beginning trumpeter |
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Hello forum:
My name is Joel Fass. I've been a professional guitarist-composer-songwriter for most of my nigh 67 years, active in jazz and somewhat in pop.
I always have been in love with trumpet, perhaps more so flugelhorn. As a single-note improviser I've used that dark; round sound as a model and a 'simulated air column'---a longtime jazz guitar approach.
I finally took the plunge last winter and got me a horn, a decent, clean Hoffer student model---OK to start out with. I had no illusions about making quick progress, knowing at least that lips on brass is not at 1st natural. I reasoned that if nothing else learning some fingering and breath control would give me some good orchestration insight. But I really do want to play, at least for myself.
These 1st months really kicked my behind and humbled me. Just to get a sound; go through lip buzzes; breathing to the metronome; achieve a beginning embouchure. I hit on a local (Philly) player friend to teach me, and he graciously accepted. Now at least I've just started to be able to make the open C G high C and the 1st 4 of a C scale. Believe me, it's progress when 2 weeks ago I could hardly control air passage enough to play any note in tune.
It's a test of patience when you know music having been involved for your life, but now must start as a baby switching to the 'brave new world'---but I'm determined, and inspired.
Advice an encouragement would be welcome. Thanks!...
(Update: I can now play, in tune, the opening strains of When I Grow Too Old to Dream---and start fooling with Moanin' in concert G. Eb!)
Straight ahead... |
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tptptp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 1409 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Joel, what you're doing is about as brave as taking up golf at this age!
Seriously, I admire you for taking this on. A teacher will be of great benefit, and just keep going.
If possible, get a high quality horn....Maybe ask your teacher to play-test it before buying.
Good luck! _________________ Craig Mitchell |
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Dayton Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Posts: 2041 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Welcome to trumpet playing! Work with your friend to put together a routine that meets your needs, and then stick to it. Don't over practice, which is easy to do at the early stages. Don't worry about your horn at this stage. As long as it is mechanically sound it should be fine for your first few years. Have fun! |
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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 8:32 am Post subject: |
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tptptp wrote: | Joel, what you're doing is about as brave as taking up golf at this age!
Seriously, I admire you for taking this on. A teacher will be of great benefit, and just keep going.
If possible, get a high quality horn....Maybe ask your teacher to play-test it before buying.
Good luck! | It's a natural progression---NOT meaning that picking up the horn was easy, it KICKED my ass---but in the sense that, let's be real, the leaders in jazz were always the horns (and pianists). Guitar is a relative latecomer in that it was a rhythm instrument until finally liberated to solo audibly by the advent of pickups. We've come a long way, but I would submit that it's largely from copping from horns, i.e. Charlie Christian studying and applying Pres. I feel strongly that the really good jazz guitarists---not to downplay the great orchestral qualities it offers (hell, we gotta get even SOME damn way!) simulate an air column playing melody and single line solos. It's done by setup; touch, tonal manipulation like bending and glissing.
That's what I mean by a 'natural progression'. It's also humbling to have your ass handed to you by an unfamiliar instrument---keep's one's ego in check. 2 other things I'm excited about: the good playing brass can do for your lungs, and the orchestrational insights I'll gain as composer.
Thank you all for your support. I'll be around to learn...
Last edited by joelf on Fri May 28, 2021 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 8:37 am Post subject: Re: Lifelong musician, beginning trumpeter |
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joelf wrote: | ... achieve a beginning embouchure. ... |
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Hopefully your trumpet playing friend got you started with the proper 'embouchure technique'. But for many people that's a problem, and it's compounded if the teacher 'just naturally' does in a way that works for him but has difficulty explaining or giving good demonstration.
There are lots of good youtube videos about 'basic embouchure' that can help. When watching them, I have found it very useful to WATCH what the person is DOING as well as what they say. And pay most attention to the basics, not so much to the 'individual quirks'.
My thoughts about 'embouchure basics' are here -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm
they aren't specifically for 'teaching how to play', but more about items to consider regarding what YOU are doing, and what the embouchure itself needs to do. And perhaps things to ask your friend about. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Lifelong musician, beginning trumpeter |
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JayKosta wrote: | joelf wrote: | ... achieve a beginning embouchure. ... |
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Hopefully your trumpet playing friend got you started with the proper 'embouchure technique'. | He did. He's quite a conscientious cat, very positive and a rising young Philly badass---Elliot Bild. I hired him for my last gig at Fat Cat and he both ate up my music and is a genuine team player.
I'm in good hands... |
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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Lifelong musician, beginning trumpeter |
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JayKosta wrote: | joelf wrote: | ... achieve a beginning embouchure. ... |
------------------------------
Hopefully your trumpet playing friend got you started with the proper 'embouchure technique'. But for many people that's a problem, and it's compounded if the teacher 'just naturally' does in a way that works for him but has difficulty explaining or giving good demonstration.
There are lots of good youtube videos about 'basic embouchure' that can help. When watching them, I have found it very useful to WATCH what the person is DOING as well as what they say. And pay most attention to the basics, not so much to the 'individual quirks'.
My thoughts about 'embouchure basics' are here -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm
they aren't specifically for 'teaching how to play', but more about items to consider regarding what YOU are doing, and what the embouchure itself needs to do. And perhaps things to ask your friend about. | And thanks---I'll look at your link for sure... |
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Croquethed Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2013 Posts: 614 Location: Oakville, CT
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 9:28 am Post subject: |
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Welcome to trumpet playing, Joel!
I lucked into seeing Elliot one night at a Litchfield Jazz Camp faculty concert a couple years ago. Yes, I'd say you're in VERY good hands instructorwise.
You sound like a consummate professional who knows exactly how music should be approached. I have never played anything other than trumpet, and took 40 years off between Stints 1 and 2, so have very little to compare it to. But it becomes an indispensible part of your day very quickly.
I also second recognizing the brass playing/health connection. Getting the horn on one's lips every day and getting that half-hour run in are a terrific feedback loop. Oh, and Moanin' is a very cool song to be noodling with! |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Welcome! Sounds like you’re on the right track. And if you at times get discouraged, check out the quote by Arturo Sandoval below my signature. It’s not meant to be used as an excuse, but it’s reality for most of us.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Brad361 wrote: | Welcome! Sounds like you’re on the right track. And if you at times get discouraged, check out the quote by Arturo Sandoval below my signature. It’s not meant to be used as an excuse, but it’s reality for most of us.
Brad | 'Sometimes you feel you can do ANYTHING. Next day you put it to your chops and it says 'Screw you!'!---Roy Eldridge... |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Joel,
Welcome to the trumpet world! If I read your original post right, you are able to play a high C, so something about your embochure is right! Good luck with your playing! _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Whatever a high C means to a guitar player.... |
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SMrtn Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2014 Posts: 367 Location: Spain
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Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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If you're anything like me you'll want to quit a thousand times, but if you just don't, you'll get all your scales and modes under your fingers. You'll start to play stuff, improvise, and actually enjoy it. You'll even begin harmonizing with other players, which is the best part. |
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Satchel Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2021 Posts: 115
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Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hi! I'm in my early 30s and picked up trumpet a little over a month ago. I'm in the same boat, as an adult lifelong-musician/trumpet-beginner: it's difficult to get a sound. I was expecting the same curve as saxophone. It's been harder than saxophone so far.
I tried on my own: zero success, very frustrating. I invested in a teacher and finally it worked and she helped build confidence. Now I have 1.5 "safe" octave to play with and I can already play a few traditional tunes from my country.
The challenge where I'm at is to expand the range, note by note, and to control soft playing. With my teacher we do mostly exercises, breathing, learning to relax, position of the horn, of the body, of the mouth... So many minute things to get right. |
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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:07 am Post subject: |
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SMrtn wrote: | If you're anything like me you'll want to quit a thousand times, | Nah, just 999.
Seriously, I did become despondent when for months pretty much nothing happened. Then, voila, an initial breakthrough and the sun was out.
I've been slowly building on that, tamping down my desire to transfer my general knowledge and vocab. Though I'm dying to play at least simple tunes (I'm known for knowing untold amounts of standards; jazz standards; pop tunes---on GUITAR, and can get around piano, though much slower---plus lord knows I ain't the world's most patient person so yes there is frustration) my wise teacher wants a strong, correct foundation 1st, and so do I. Laser-like focus---period. I'm happy to do a warm up: metronome breathing; long tones and now a slow descent from concert Ab chromatically down to F---all below middle C and 4 beats/note at MM 60. I mess with some simple tunes but will stop for now b/c it's not time yet. My current poor control leads to them sounding like s**t and I love music too much for that. The tunes'll be there when I'm ready.
So far from wanting to bail I'm SO inspired! I'm learning patience and want to learn one instrument correctly for once. I did a lot myself on guitar, though I did study with the best when they came through---and though I sound like myself through my talents; guidance; influences and all I let wash over me there are technical and control hiccups---still. I have to remediate when it gets to the point of bugging me and interferes w/music making. That won't happen again on a horn.
I know there's no one way to do things, especially in jazz, but we all know---and wince---when someone throws rocks in his own path b/c of poor fundamentals.
Way before I ever had a thought of picking up a trumpet I used to hang out a lot with Joe Magnarelli. He was already a known ace and working with everyone---AND taking lessons---on FUNDAMNTALS! I would hear his warm up, which included blowing into a balloon, then the buzzes and long tones, etc. He wouldn't be interrupted by man nor woman, and told me 'there's a right way and wrong way to do things'---meaning fundamentals. A jazzer, of course he knows about creativity and 'wiggle room'.
He gave me a Clarke book too, back then (90s). When it's time I'll crack it, and Caruso too. ONLY when it's time...
Slow and steady wins the race... |
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SMrtn Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2014 Posts: 367 Location: Spain
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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joelf wrote: | SMrtn wrote: | If you're anything like me you'll want to quit a thousand times, | Nah, just 999.
Seriously, I did become despondent when for months pretty much nothing happened. Then, voila, an initial breakthrough and the sun was out.
I've been slowly building on that, tamping down my desire to transfer my general knowledge and vocab. Though I'm dying to play at least simple tunes (I'm known for knowing untold amounts of standards; jazz standards; pop tunes---on GUITAR, and can get around piano, though much slower---plus lord knows I ain't the world's most patient person so yes there is frustration) my wise teacher wants a strong, correct foundation 1st, and so do I. Laser-like focus---period. I'm happy to do a warm up: metronome breathing; long tones and now a slow descent from concert Ab chromatically down to F---all below middle C and 4 beats/note at MM 60. I mess with some simple tunes but will stop for now b/c it's not time yet. My current poor control leads to them sounding like s**t and I love music too much for that. The tunes'll be there when I'm ready.
So far from wanting to bail I'm SO inspired! I'm learning patience and want to learn one instrument correctly for once. I did a lot myself on guitar, though I did study with the best when they came through---and though I sound like myself through my talents; guidance; influences and all I let wash over me there are technical and control hiccups---still. I have to remediate when it gets to the point of bugging me and interferes w/music making. That won't happen again on a horn.
I know there's no one way to do things, especially in jazz, but we all know---and wince---when someone throws rocks in his own path b/c of poor fundamentals.
Way before I ever had a thought of picking up a trumpet I used to hang out a lot with Joe Magnarelli. He was already a known ace and working with everyone---AND taking lessons---on FUNDAMNTALS! I would hear his warm up, which included blowing into a balloon, then the buzzes and long tones, etc. He wouldn't be interrupted by man nor woman, and told me 'there's a right way and wrong way to do things'---meaning fundamentals. A jazzer, of course he knows about creativity and 'wiggle room'.
He gave me a Clarke book too, back then (90s). When it's time I'll crack it, and Caruso too. ONLY when it's time...
Slow and steady wins the race... |
Dude...stop....I mean, you're the one inspiring me now. Sounds like you've got your **** sorted with your long term outlook on this thing. And what the hell? You got to hang out with Joe Magnarell? That's just too good. I watch the Small's livestream almost every day and Joe's there often. I dig his playing, and he seems to have a lot of patience for younger players.
Re the Clarke's technical exercise book - Yeah that's the one for when you get those fundamentals down. As one of my fave youtube musicians says "Now, go practice". |
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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:52 am Post subject: |
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SMrtn wrote: | "Now, go practice". |
Word. Listening to Tom Harrell Stories now trying to wake up. Then off my ass to long tones... |
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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:31 am Post subject: |
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SMrtn wrote: |
You got to hang out with Joe Magnareli?.... | Not to make a big deal of it I'm a NYer (trying to get back, actually). I was on the scene since the mid-70s as guitarist. In the 80s I was involved w/Barry Harris's JCT and hung hard with C. Sharpe and especially Tommy Turrentine. (Have a tribute tune for those 2). I had lots of great experiences and just as much serious ass-kickings and dues paid---so I don't expect any ring-kissing just b/c of an accident of birth, location.
But it was a great training ground and I was lucky to catch the tail end of great jazz in NY. The 1st 'big time' gig I did was in '84 at the West End, with George Kelly's Jazz Sultans. Benny Powell was in the group but on trumpet was the SO underrated Virgil Jones.
People were around and accessible. You could talk to Tom Harrell on break and I did. Chris Anderson was around, a beautiful, warm person and unique pianist. Barry worshipped him and had him on every concert. We became friends. I was in Jaki Byard's Apollo Stompers for 1 1/2 years. He KICKED my ass!
It was a great environment for a young musician. Now I'm an old musician and discovering a new world of brass is keeping me young...
Last edited by joelf on Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5680 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:25 am Post subject: |
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The one thing that I'll add here that doesn't seem to have been addressed yet is that you're going to have to embrace the idea that this is going to be harder and take longer than you probably realize.
Here are a couple of perspectives. This is a bit wordy, but stick with me - I believe it's relevant.
As a trumpet player I started at age 11 in the 5th grade. I was a middle-of-the-section player until about halfway through my 7th grade year. For some reason that's when things started to click and really come naturally. In a practical sense, I'd been on the horn 2-3 years.
Moving forward from there, I was 17 and in my Junior year of HS before I got to a point where I could play at a level beyond the typical HS kid - I played my first wedding for pay that year.
Keep in mind, I was not a mediocre player by that point. I walked away with the trumpet solo awards at our regional music contests both my Junior and Senior years, participated in all of the regional honor bands, was seated high in the section in the All-State honor band, and auditioned for and was accepted into the Army music program at the beginning of my Senior year of HS.
Here's another perspective.
I started playing drums regularly at age 33 when a friend needed a drummer for his church's praise team. I already had a 10-year stint as an active duty Army trumpet player, and did a lot of freelance stuff with weddings, big bands, Latin bands, wedding bands, brass quintets - so I figured that playing drums was going to be a simple matter to pick up. I'd dabbled with drums since I was in high school, both as a kit player and as a rudimental snare drummer, so I figured my hands were already in great shape.
The reality was a bit different. I was getting by just fine and thought I was doing great until I was able to get my hands on some of the recordings off of the sound board on Sunday mornings. Those revealed that I wasn't nearly as awesome as I thought I was, and that there were some issues I needed to address - your perspective behind the kit isn't always what's actually happening. I ended up moving on to another church that had a CD ministry so I was able to analyze my playing on a weekly basis, which helped tremendously, but it was also humbling.
I was a full 5 years into my drumming endeavors before I could listen back to a recording of a performance and not cringe about how I'd played something.
So how does all of this apply to you?
I found out as an adult trying to pick up another instrument that there is no shortcut to get you past the beginning stages of building technique and musicianship on the new instrument, regardless of your abilities with another instrument. Even though adults have a different level of discipline and commitment than kids do, it's likely to be YEARS before you'll get to a point where you can be functional musically on the level you wish to be.
Point blank: you're going to have to embrace the suck for a while, and you're going to have to stick with it long enough to push through to the other side of it. This is providing for the idea that you don't have some fundamental technique/embouchure obstacles to overcome. I was a natural, and it still took me 7 years to get to a point where I could play at a level that would be acceptable outside of an academic setting.
Every time I see a thread started by an adult newcomer to the horn, or even a comeback player who hasn't played in a long time, I kinda cringe because I know that unlike kids who are happy to be doing it at all, adults tend to lose patience with things where they don't see quick improvement.
I didn't post all of this to be discouraging. I posted it as a reality check that it's going to be a while before you develop enough skills on the horn to do anything with it outside of the practice room.
Good luck and keep us posted! _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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joelf Regular Member
Joined: 24 May 2021 Posts: 46 Location: philadelphia, pa
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Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Not discouraged in the least---nor do I have a single illusion about how long it'll take or how hard I'll have to work. I'm not a Pollyanna, but very determined.
Like I said initially, even if I never play for anyone but myself if I can finger and understand the horn; get a sound; think in Bb---all enough to ratchet my writing chops up some I'll be ahead of the game.
We'll see in a year if the bloom's off the rose. Anything's possible and we all know the turns life can take. I'm betting I'll hang in, long as I'm breathing in and out... |
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