• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Red ring on lips


Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
TheAidanAU
Regular Member


Joined: 27 Apr 2021
Posts: 49
Location: Virginia, USA

PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 6:22 pm    Post subject: Red ring on lips Reply with quote

Hello everyone,

When playing in the high range around the G right above the staff and up to high D (the maximum I can currently go), I get a red ring on my lips. I know it is because of tension and too much pressure, and I was wondering how I can get rid of that tension and pressure, while still playing high.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheAidanAU
Regular Member


Joined: 27 Apr 2021
Posts: 49
Location: Virginia, USA

PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, I am playing on a 7c, but I am not sure this makes a difference. I might be getting a 3c soon, so I will see how that changes my playing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mike ansberry
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Posts: 1444
Location: Clarksville, Tn

PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure this is a problem. Too much pressure can be detrimental. But some is necessary.

I was backstage after a Severinsen concert. Doc walked over to me and pointed at my lip and said, "so you play trumpet".

Maynard looks like someone has had at his embouchure with a hatchet.
_________________
Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
stumac
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 651
Location: Flinders, Australia

PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would suggest you change the way you hold the horn, cup your left hand with palm up, rest the bottom of the valve block in the hollow, if this is uncomfortable, hold around the bottom of the valve block letting the horn rest on the thumb and forefinger and do not put the right pinkie in the hook, just let it float. This has worked for me.

Watch Lyn Nicholson's 3 minute video "Compression" on youtube several times demonstrating the Abbs and Intercostal muscles used in playing high. This was an eye opener for me.

The Best advice was given to me 70 years ago by an old soprano cornet player was to "Hold her lightly and kiss her gently", It took me a long time to realize the significance of this.

Regards, Stuart.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheAidanAU
Regular Member


Joined: 27 Apr 2021
Posts: 49
Location: Virginia, USA

PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumac wrote:
I would suggest you change the way you hold the horn, cup your left hand with palm up, rest the bottom of the valve block in the hollow, if this is uncomfortable, hold around the bottom of the valve block letting the horn rest on the thumb and forefinger and do not put the right pinkie in the hook, just let it float. This has worked for me.

Watch Lyn Nicholson's 3 minute video "Compression" on youtube several times demonstrating the Abbs and Intercostal muscles used in playing high. This was an eye opener for me.

The Best advice was given to me 70 years ago by an old soprano cornet player was to "Hold her lightly and kiss her gently", It took me a long time to realize the significance of this.

Regards, Stuart.
Okay, I will. thank you for the info.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Voltrane
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 521
Location: Paris (France)

PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stumac wrote:
“ Hold her lightly and kiss her gently", It took me a long time to realize the significance of this.”
Really?
_________________
S’il n’en reste qu’un je serai celui là (Victor Hugo)
Je m’empresse d’en rire de peur d’avoir à en pleurer (Beaumarchais)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stumac
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 651
Location: Flinders, Australia

PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Voltrane,

as an 8 year old in 1946 this was beyond my ken, I stopped playing in 1950 due to an accident that broke mt 2 front teeth and only came back to playing in 1985.

Regards, Stuart.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Voltrane
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 521
Location: Paris (France)

PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! Good to know you could play again!
But your sentence made me think of something else.
Could not resist
_________________
S’il n’en reste qu’un je serai celui là (Victor Hugo)
Je m’empresse d’en rire de peur d’avoir à en pleurer (Beaumarchais)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GeorgeB
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Apr 2016
Posts: 694
Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't say the ring is always caused by pressure. I am in my 80s and after an hour or so of playing I will get a ring around my chops. But I do not use any more pressure than is necessary to get a good seal. My grip is as follows:
I do not hold the horn tightly with my left hand, it just rests there. In my right hand, the fingers rest above the valve keys. The only finger that touches the trumpet is the thumb resting on the first valve casing. This is certainly not a pressure playing grip. I think the ring has a lot to do with whether your chops are hard or soft. I know mine are soft because of my age. After an hour or two the ring goes away.
_________________
GeorgeB
Manchester Brass Custom ( ACB ) RL-GB pro B flat trumpet
1942 Buescher 400 225 (ML Bore ) Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B flat trumpet
1959 Selmer Paris 24B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bethmike
Regular Member


Joined: 21 Jan 2020
Posts: 52
Location: Crystal Lake, il

PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:42 am    Post subject: red ring on lips Reply with quote

Quote:
Watch Lyn Nicholson's 3 minute video "Compression" on youtube several times demonstrating the Abbs and Intercostal muscles used in playing high. This was an eye opener for me


This video shows how Lynn is compressing the air is his lungs. But what is he pushing against? To exaggerate, if you try to do this with no horn and your mouth wide open, of course, there will be no compression. So, when playing, is an arched tongue what Lynn is pushing against? Is it his aperture? The mpc throat? What is pushing back at his core muscles, and how is he focusing his air stream?

I have very strong core and intercostals from years at the gym, but I am not making videos of me playing DHC and THC.

If I am wording my question poorly, please don't attack my word choices in my question. If you can provide useful insight, I would really appreciate hearing your thoughts.

Thanks!
_________________
Focused on being better, at trumpet and at life.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
stumac
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 651
Location: Flinders, Australia

PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thoughts are it is the impedance of the horn, (AC resistance) that doubles for each octave.

My own measurements on myself and several other players shows the minimum air pressure in the mouth includes the lungs to sustain a note increases by approximately 2-1/4 for each octave, for high C around 30" Water gauge approximately 1 psi.

Regards, Stuart.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1762
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 6:06 am    Post subject: Re: red ring on lips Reply with quote

Bethmike wrote:

This video shows how Lynn is compressing the air is his lungs. But what is he pushing against? ... and how is he focusing his air stream? ...

---------------------------------------------
The resistance to 'air flow' resulting from adjustment and control of the lip aperture shape, size, and flexibility.

'Focus' of the air stream includes adjustment of jaw position, rim pressure, tongue position from muscle effort, mouthpiece position, etc.

The SKILL of playing high notes is learning how (and being able, through practice and training) to do ALL of those things in a coordinated manner that gets the most benefit from each item. It seems that many players attempt to do it primarily by rim pressure, and that can result in big problems.
_________________
going back to French horn!
Yamaha 668N, Holton DC mpc
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2021_April_1_snow_web.jpg
April morning Surprise
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TrumpTrooper
New Member


Joined: 25 May 2021
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like it
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TrumpTrooper
New Member


Joined: 25 May 2021
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

very much
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaw04
Veteran Member


Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 458
Location: Oakland, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's normal to get a mark on your lips from playing. Some get it more than others. Some people get different red marks from slight brass allergies or just from their skin vibrating. Everyone is different. Getting marks on your lip in itself does not mean anything bad, or good.
_________________
JW - musician and educator
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dershem
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1792
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get a good teacher who can sow you how to do it properly.
_________________
BKA! Mic Gillette was my model, mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt 4X trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc.
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Robert P
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 1888

PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Red ring on lips Reply with quote

TheAidanAU wrote:
Hello everyone,

When playing in the high range around the G right above the staff and up to high D (the maximum I can currently go), I get a red ring on my lips. I know it is because of tension and too much pressure, and I was wondering how I can get rid of that tension and pressure, while still playing high.

No, it's not necessarily because of too much pressure.

Nobody plays with no evidence of it on their chops. As has been pointed out people who play high and loud a lot typically have a degree of scarring on their lips. Nobody plays useful notes with "non pressure" playing. If the mouthpiece is touching your lips there's pressure even if there's not enough pressure to play.

At root, trumpet is a reed instrument - the pressure of the mouthpiece trapping the lips against the teeth distorts the lip tissue to form the reed, the reed is altered by subtle changes caused by the musculature of the face, variations in physical mouthpiece pressure, changes in what the air and teeth are doing.

Some will point to videos of people playing with the horn on their palm as if this is meaningful. They ignore that 1) the palm player cheats a bit by slightly impeding the horn with their fingers and 2) the notes that come out sound airy and shrieky and wouldn't be acceptable in a performance situation - that when that same player actually played in a performance situation they used a lot more pressure. They're going to say "they're proving that it's possible to play high without pressure". What they're proving that it's possible to play shrieky, airy, terrible-sounding notes by not using enough pressure.

The trick is to learn to play higher notes without beating your chops to a pulp - in the battle of your soft tissues versus hard metal, the metal has an huge advantage. This is a challenge to everyone who picks up the instrument - it requires subtle manipulations of the various elements that are involved in playing - chops, throat, teeth, tongue, air. It requires a lot more *effort* to play higher.
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel


Last edited by Robert P on Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:31 am; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 732

PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Red ring on lips Reply with quote

TheAidanAU wrote:
Hello everyone,

When playing in the high range around the G right above the staff and up to high D (the maximum I can currently go), I get a red ring on my lips. I know it is because of tension and too much pressure, and I was wondering how I can get rid of that tension and pressure, while still playing high.


My best guess is that you need to apply more ''Roll-In'' to your chops. By slightly inverting one or both lips the notes that you're currently having difficulty playing should become easy to sustain. But take note!

Only the lower lip can perform the roll-in ''on the fly''. Meaning that while both lips may certainly roll in prior to starting the blow? Only the lower, non-vibrating lip is able to roll in while the tone is sustained. Doubt me?

Go ahead and just try to roll in your upper lip while sustaining any note and in any register! The tone will ALWAYS cut out. And this is another indication that the upper lip really is the only vibrating surface on the chops. The above words are my theory and are easily proven. That said? One of the best places to learn how to roll-in your chops is in Jeff Smiley's ''Balanced embouchure'' book. Jeff has his own, dedicated forum here on Trumpetherald. I highly recommend that you look into it.

Jeff describes an exercise there known as ''Lip Clamp Squeaks'' and these are some high-pitched tones that can be produced just on rolled-in chops alone! No mouthpiece and no horn. The rest of his book is pretty good reading too. The main difference between his train of thought and my own is that he suggests that some trumpet players engage in pedal tone practice and I don't. There's nothing wrong with his approach and I'm certain that it helps many people.

However, I have come to believe that the usage of pedal tones, is kind of a ''crapshoot'' when it comes to developing good register. No doubt that pedal tones will assist most trumpet players (who find them attractive in the first place) at improving their high range. However, I have found that the results of this technical approach can not always guarantee the development of the complete range on the horn. And as such this isn't an approach that I personally employ. My students may try pedal tones if they want, but I won't promote the pedals. Nor the related ''pooched out''or ''rolled-out'' embouchure condition. At least not on a regular basis.

Instead I recommend the use of the roll-in as described in the ''Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique''. Albeit in some cases this fairly dated system may need some alterations in order to make it actually work properly. Nevertheless, this approach virtually guarantees that the complete range on the horn can be developed. This really attracts me. See, I want the notes well above Double C on my horn. Not necessarily because I ever intend to use them in concert . Instead I want, say a G/Double C capable embouchure because by having this note it makes all the notes below it largely inconsequential. As a man who can lift 300 pounds will have no trouble at all lifting 200 or 100 pounds.

It's a simple concept, but not exactly an easy one. As nothing worthwhile learning is easy. Anyway?

Good luck my friend!
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nieuwguyski
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 2088
Location: Santa Cruz County, CA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My instructor in college had quite a few framed pictures on the wall of his office where he gave lessons. Two, side-by-side, were pictures of Bud Herseth during his esteemed career with the CSO. One was a picture of Herseth in the heat of battle, his face beet red with effort. The other was a picture of Herseth standing in front of the orchestra after a solo feature, a ring from the mouthpiece very visible on his lips.

Both of those pictures were pointed out to me during lessons, in response to my expressing frustration that no matter how much I practiced and worked on playing "effortlessly," I still turned red when playing high and loud, and had a ring on my chops after playing hard and long. My instructor's point was that obsessing about how I looked while I played, or how I looked immediately after I had played wasn't constructive. I wasn't passing out or even getting light-headed when my face turned red and my endurance was fine, despite the ring on my chops (and I could play day after day, so there were no long-lasting effects), so his advice was to avoid mirrors during, and for a while after, I played.
_________________
J. Notso Nieuwguyski
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
GeorgeB
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Apr 2016
Posts: 694
Location: New Glasgow, Nova Scotia

PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:17 am    Post subject: Re: Red ring on lips Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:

Nobody plays with no evidence of it on their chops. As has been pointed out people who play high and loud a lot have a degree of scarring on their lips. Nobody plays useful notes with "non pressure" playing. If the mouthpiece is touching your lips there's pressure even if there's not enough pressure to play.

At root, trumpet is a reed instrument - the pressure of the mouthpiece trapping the lips against the teeth distorts the lip tissue to form the reed, the reed is altered by subtle changes caused by the musculature of the face, variations in physical mouthpiece pressure, changes in what the air and teeth are doing.

Some will point to videos of people playing with the horn on their palm as if this is meaningful. They ignore that 1) the palm player cheats a bit by slightly impeding the horn with their fingers and 2) the notes that come out sound airy and shrieky and wouldn't be acceptable in a performance situation - that when that same player actually played in a performance situation they used a lot more pressure. They're going to say "they're proving that it's possible to play high without pressure". What they're proving that it's possible to play shrieky, airy, terrible-sounding notes by not using enough pressure.

The trick is to learn to play higher notes without beating your chops to a pulp - in the battle of your soft tissues versus hard metal, the metal has an huge advantage. This is a challenge to everyone who picks up the instrument - it requires subtle manipulations of the various elements that are involved in playing - chops, throat, teeth, tongue, air. It requires a lot more *effort* to play higher.


Excellent post, Robert. I am in total agreement with everything you said.

George
_________________
GeorgeB
Manchester Brass Custom ( ACB ) RL-GB pro B flat trumpet
1942 Buescher 400 225 (ML Bore ) Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B flat trumpet
1959 Selmer Paris 24B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group