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Red ring on lips


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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al wrote:
Quote:
When I form my embouchure I think M, with my lips together, any separation of my lips is created by the air passing through them. If I'm playing below the staff or above double c ,my lips are always together, if I form an opening "aperture" my lips won't vibrate.


Al is spot on with this description. This is the foundation for embouchure efficiency of effort. And one of the best approaches I have adopted.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:23 am    Post subject: Re: Red ring on lips Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:

Listen carefully to your sound as you approach the top of your range. You will probably hear your sound change 4 or 5 notes below your top. These are the notes you need to work to play with a free and easy sound. Hammering the top notes will get you nowhere. ...

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That is excellent advice.

Trying to 'squeak' or 'force out' higher notes only teaches how to play them poorly.
Better to achieve the 'free and easy sound' on slightly lower notes - that opens the door to the higher ones.
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Al Innella
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is an aperture tunnel, and what lengths do you recommend for different registers? Oh and how do you measure and control them?


Jay, you say you don't form your aperture before you play, unless you use a breath attack, and then the air causes your aperture to vibrate. You called it a slight opening with somewhat aperture shape .An aperture is an aperture and how does a aperture or opening vibrate, my lips vibrate when air passes through them when they touch. My embouchure is the same no matter what kind of attack I use, tongue or breath. The lips can't vibrate if they're separated .
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al Innella wrote:
What is an aperture tunnel, and what lengths do you recommend for different registers? Oh and how do you measure and control them?


Jay, you say you don't form your aperture before you play, unless you use a breath attack, and then the air causes your aperture to vibrate. You called it a slight opening with somewhat aperture shape .An aperture is an aperture and how does a aperture or opening vibrate, my lips vibrate when air passes through them when they touch. My embouchure is the same no matter what kind of attack I use, tongue or breath. The lips can't vibrate if they're separated .


See Clint McLaughlin:

Clint's studies are specialized on trumpet and brass embouchure, he was the first person to explain the "Aperture Tunnel".[2][10] In his book "How the Chops Work" Clint explains how the vibrations affect the pitch; arguing that not only the length, but also the thickness and height affect it. Mr. McLaughlin also explains how adjusting the aperture tunnel when playing can increase a players resonance by strengthening higher harmonics in the vibration.
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Al Innella
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My question is how do open or close your aperture while you're playing. So when you're playing say a G above high C, not too high but high enough, you can change your aperture opening the length and thickness while performing.
I know I can't and I don't know anyone else who can. Maybe Pops can jump in on this. We had a discussion about this and he said the lips must be touching to produce a sound, not apart.
I don't know of any embouchure that works with the lips separated.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al Innella wrote:
...
Jay, you say you don't form your aperture before you play, unless you use a breath attack, and then the air causes your aperture to vibrate. ...

-----------------------------------------
I think there is a big difference in the position of the lips between the times of:
1) Getting ready to play.
and
2) Having actual air flow and 'sounding' a note.

The mechanical process of the air flow and the air pressure inside the mouthpiece will change the lips and produce the 'playing aperture' that is seen in visualizers, etc.

During the 'get ready to play' portion, the lips need to be adjusted so that when air flow occurs the lips are able produce the desired vibrations / pulsations - and to achieve the type of 'attack' that is wanted.

edit: I do not know the 'exact mechanics' of what is happening, and I am not convinced that degree of knowledge is needed for playing or teaching.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al Innella wrote:
My question is how do open or close your aperture while you're playing. So when you're playing say a G above high C, not too high but high enough, you can change your aperture opening the length and thickness while performing. ...

----------------------------------------
If you can change the loudness, tone quality, or pitch of a note that you are playing, then it's likely that there are changes happening to the aperture. So the way you 'make the aperture change' is by changing the sound of the note.
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Al Innella
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I control my volume and tone quality with my air, the more air,, the louder the volume, as for pitch, when I play in the upper register I use a forward jaw with a roll in of my lower lip. This creates an over lap, no room for aperture or opening in the embouchure. If I played with an opening (aperture)in my embouchure in the upper register, I would have trouble playing above high C, a loss of more than an octave.

This will be my last post on this subject, you can disagree with what I'm going to say but after this I'm done. I wasn't born with an upper register, like a lot players my range was D Eb above high C. I played in high school, went to college for a semester and still had the same range. Left school gigged for a while got drafted in the army, enlisted for the band, went to the school of music, still had the same range. Their answer was to practice more, that's all you did there, was practice and buff floors.

After my discharge I went back to college still had the same range. When my private lesson and performance requirements were over so 46 years ago at the ripe old age of 25, I decided to experiment with my embouchure. I made some tweeks gained range immediately . Worked with it and went from playing 3rd or 4th trumpet to lead and scream. Once a band leader got Jerry Callet to sub for me on a gig. I played lead with The Jimmy Dorsey orchestra and Melba Liston's big band, Frank Foster to name only a few.

Now for lip aperture turn to page 148 in Reinardt's Encyclopedia of the Pivot System he says and I quote,

"The term lip aperture refers to the space blown open (not tongued open) for the necessary production of lip vibrations to create the sound. Permitting the lips to open at the vibrating points during the embouchure preparation(prior to placement), during the mouthpiece placement, during the inhalation, and at the completion of the blowing, is one of the principal contributing factors for lack of range, power, flexibility, endurance, etc. In the PIVOT SYSTEM, the lip aperture must exist only during the actual blowing."

It's been fun, but I'm done,


Al


Last edited by Al Innella on Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The aperture issue may be semantic. The lips start vibrating from a touch position when air is blown through them. At that point there is an aperture opening defined by the rapid opening and closing of the lips. But it only occurs when the air is moving through. Slow motion vids have clearly shown this to be the case.

On the other hand, I personally, and many others, don't usually set the lips at the the touch position before blowing the air. I bring the lips together and blow the air at the same time. The timing works perfectly and the attacks are always clean; no air at the beginning. Sometimes I may start the lips in touch position. I'm pretty comfortable doing it either way.

As far as I know, playing a "cha" always requires the lips to be touching before air is blown.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrpPro wrote:
The aperture issue may be semantic. ...

------------------------------------
I agree about an issue with semantics.
Especially regarding 'movements and adjustments' during playing -
1) Are they directly controlled by specific intent and muscle activation?
2) Do they unconsciously 'happen' while doing some other 'direct control' action (such as a response to blowing harder)?
3) Do they 'happen' while doing some less well defined action - such as 'playing with more resonance', etc.?
4) And of course there's the issue about how well a player can actually determine and explain 'what exactly' is happening.
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The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
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