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Trumpetingbynurture
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015
Posts: 898
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 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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There is some physics hand-waving going on here. There have been experiments that have created models of the tongue and lips and have observed actual pitch change in the vibration of the lips from adjusting the obstruction/position of the tongue in the physical model.
It is quite possible for one to state correctly a single law of physics while misunderstanding or ignoring other physical laws that may be in effect. It's not *only* air flow and air pressure. There are acoustical laws involved as well |
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Mike Prestage
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 722
Location: Hereford, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | There is some physics hand-waving going on here. There have been experiments that have created models of the tongue and lips and have observed actual pitch change in the vibration of the lips from adjusting the obstruction/position of the tongue in the physical model.
It is quite possible for one to state correctly a single law of physics while misunderstanding or ignoring other physical laws that may be in effect. It's not *only* air flow and air pressure. There are acoustical laws involved as well |
There's rather more hand-waving in the above than in the original discussion! I'm also pretty sure no-one who posted in this thread believes it's 'only air flow and pressure'.
If that research was written up and published anywhere then I'd be very interested in reading it but, honestly, anecdotal accounts of 'experiments' are about as unconvincing as evidence gets.
Mike |
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Rod Haney
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Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:55 am Post subject: |
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I’m finding that there is some good in all the discussions and views. It has all been useful to me in that I usually try things as described and keep the useful and discard what doesn’t work for me. I have found one method which works for me but that was after trying many. Everything I’ve tried has been useful in some manner even if I couldn’t use it. But I had to try it to find out. In the last 6 months I’ve been making progress I’m pleased with but that’s a result of 3 years of experimentation and learning ( listening to results thru recordings). If anyone had a single way to teach range that worked for everyone the high range forum would close. Nothing but personal exploration and judging results can get you there IMO. Everyone’s path may be different, and that path should lead to a good sound at whatever range you have. I do at least 1/2 hour specifically to concentrate on those facial muscles and the clarity of sound. Any info can help if only to show bad paths.
My opinion
Rod |
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scottfsmith
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Joined: 27 Jun 2015
Posts: 474
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Mike Prestage wrote: | | If that research was written up and published anywhere then I'd be very interested in reading it but, honestly, anecdotal accounts of 'experiments' are about as unconvincing as evidence gets.
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Bring on the science! 
https://asa.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1121/1.4799106
https://www.mpibpc.mpg.de/17462000/411Real-timeMRI.pdf
http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/reprints/TrumpetTract.pdf
These papers don't give definitive answers but suggest that there are acoustic physics reasons why players raise their tongues.
The first paper seems to have the only concrete hypothesis which is:
| Quote: | | In the blowing simulation, the vibration frequency of the lips was not so affected by the change in the vocal-tract shape, but with the vocal tract, the vibrating frequency shifted to a higher mode at a lower eigenfrequency, especially for the seventh and eighth modes of the instrument. This implies that the player can produce a high-pitch sound more easily with lower tension of the lips. |
In other words, less tension was needed on the lips to get a high note out with a smaller cavity. I don't understand the details of eigenfrequencies to fully grasp this argument.
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Mike Prestage
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 722
Location: Hereford, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Thanks a lot for the links to the papers. They look well worth taking the time to read properly - I'll comment once I've done that 
Mike |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3310
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| scottfsmith wrote: | ...
https://asa.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1121/1.4799106
...
The first paper seems to have the only concrete hypothesis which is:
| Quote: | | In the blowing simulation, the vibration frequency of the lips was not so affected by the change in the vocal-tract shape, but with the vocal tract, the vibrating frequency shifted to a higher mode at a lower eigenfrequency, especially for the seventh and eighth modes of the instrument. This implies that the player can produce a high-pitch sound more easily with lower tension of the lips. |
In other words, less tension was needed on the lips to get a high note out with a smaller cavity. I don't understand the details of eigenfrequencies to fully grasp this argument. |
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I did a quick review of the 3 articles, and the one above is the only one where I found a reference to 'lip tension'. Perhaps the testing methods (MRI, etc.) do not provide good information about the overall 'lip posture' that occurs when playing.
The articles seem to be mainly concerned with the physical position of the tongue and the shape of the oral cavity, with little attention to what effect those items have on 'lip posture'.
Edit: The quote -
"This implies that the player can produce a high-pitch sound more easily with lower tension of the lips"
seems to come from analysis of the charts in figure 6 of simulated lip vibration frequency, and my comments below likely DO NOT apply.
Is fig 6 trying to show what the simulation predicts IF the range of pitches 'could be' produced with the low/mid/high-pitch VT (vocal tract)?
The issue of perhaps 'can produce a high-pitch sound more easily with lower tension of the lips' is interesting because it relates to the player's skill of adjusting 'lip posture'. Perhaps by making the vibrating area of the lip aperture smaller, less overall lip 'tension' is needed - because that smaller aperture is capable of fast vibrations at a lower level of tension when actual playing forces (e.g. air pressure, and acoustic impedance) are present.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Last edited by JayKosta on Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HERMOKIWI
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Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2581
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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If you can increase the length of the aperture tunnel you'll need less lip tension. The shorter the aperture tunnel the more tension you need to keep it in place and effective.
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steve0930
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Joined: 07 May 2018
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Trumpet Players and Hyvää Juhannusta! (Finnish for mid summer - big deal over here.. what with all the dark winter nights..)
Nerves of Stone wrote
| Quote: | | If you can increase the length of the aperture tunnel you'll need less lip tension |
I like this idea. So far I try to accomplish it by
1) Pushing the horn off my face
2) Whistling visualization.
Any other tips to lengthen the aperture tunnel? (For Balanced Embouchure fans I guess RO exercises also part of the answer)
cheers steve
PS Rod - sounds like you and I have pretty much similar ideas on development , IMVHO "facial muscles" are the unsung bridesmaids at the Wedding (not sure if that analogy works at all!!)
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Richard III
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2655
Location: Anacortes, WA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | If you can increase the length of the aperture tunnel you'll need less lip tension. The shorter the aperture tunnel the more tension you need to keep it in place and effective. |
And the maintenance of same uses larger muscle groups to accomplish it. Short tunnel equals much more small muscle fine tuning.
Also, the sound with a short tunnel can become brittle. That long tunnel makes the vibrating surface much more relaxed and gives a fuller sound.
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Trumpetingbynurture
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2015
Posts: 898
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| Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Prestage wrote: | | Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | There is some physics hand-waving going on here. There have been experiments that have created models of the tongue and lips and have observed actual pitch change in the vibration of the lips from adjusting the obstruction/position of the tongue in the physical model.
It is quite possible for one to state correctly a single law of physics while misunderstanding or ignoring other physical laws that may be in effect. It's not *only* air flow and air pressure. There are acoustical laws involved as well |
There's rather more hand-waving in the above than in the original discussion! I'm also pretty sure no-one who posted in this thread believes it's 'only air flow and pressure'.
If that research was written up and published anywhere then I'd be very interested in reading it but, honestly, anecdotal accounts of 'experiments' are about as unconvincing as evidence gets.
Mike |
No,. I'm just tired of raising obvious question to Kalijah and having them simply stop responding or ignore them entirely. Their model and the physics being applied is unidimensional and almost.certainly incomplete as a result of its reductive nature.
Also, there are dozens of papers easily found by googling. I.e.
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/reprints/WolfePlenaryICA2010.pdf |
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Mike Prestage
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 722
Location: Hereford, UK
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: |
No,. I'm just tired of raising obvious question to Kalijah and having them simply stop responding or ignore them entirely. Their model and the physics being applied is unidimensional and almost.certainly incomplete as a result of its reductive nature.
Also, there are dozens of papers easily found by googling. I.e.
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/reprints/WolfePlenaryICA2010.pdf |
The earlier discussion in this thread was in response to the ideas Keith Amstutz presented in the video posted by Jeff Purtle. No one was trying to propose a complete model of how the player + horn system works. As far as I can tell, neither Kalijah's points nor mine rest on assumptions that are unreasonable in the specific context of the discussion. I may well be wrong about that of course!
I haven't yet had time to thoroughly read the four papers linked in this thread but from an initial skim through them, none appear to lend any support to the model proposed by Keith Amstutz; nor do their results seem to be inconsistent with the points made earlier. I'll post about them in more detail later this week.
Mike |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:00 am Post subject: |
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An analysis that includes measurements of BOTH 'vocal tract' AND 'lip posture' is needed.
Those 2 items work in tandem while playing, and trying to to explain the acoustic effect of 1 without knowledge of the other gives incomplete (and probably misleading) information.
I do not recall ever seeing a detailed analysis of 'lip posture' (tensions, shape, size, etc.), and my guess is that actual measurements are very difficult (impossible?) to obtain with current technology. The authors of research papers do not like to depend on the 'feelings' and 'claims' of people who are providing 'data' - it gets very messy to quantify and is unreliable.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Billy B
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 6130
Location: Des Moines
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:13 am Post subject: |
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Another thread started by an expert then hi-jacked by "experts"
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Mike Prestage
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Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 722
Location: Hereford, UK
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | An analysis that includes measurements of BOTH 'vocal tract' AND 'lip posture' is needed.
Those 2 items work in tandem while playing, and trying to to explain the acoustic effect of 1 without knowledge of the other gives incomplete (and probably misleading) information.
I do not recall ever seeing a detailed analysis of 'lip posture' (tensions, shape, size, etc.), and my guess is that actual measurements are very difficult (impossible?) to obtain with current technology. The authors of research papers do not like to depend on the 'feelings' and 'claims' of people who are providing 'data' - it gets very messy to quantify and is unreliable. |
No real disagreement here but it's worth pointing out that research has to start somewhere. It's surely a legitimate research goal to establish what kind of changes (if any) happen in the oral space, and how they correlate with changes in what comes out of the bell, before anyone tries to work out exactly how all the different elements interact to ultimately control the output.
Mike |
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Mike Prestage
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Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 722
Location: Hereford, UK
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Billy B wrote: | | Another thread started by an expert then hi-jacked by "experts" |
Nobody's hijacked anything. It's an open forum and the discussion's progressed naturally from one contribution to the next. Neither has anyone claimed to be an expert, or tried to persuade anyone else that they should defer to their 'expertise'. This forum would be a lot more enjoyable if there was more willingness to respond to what other members actually say, rather than questioning whether they have the 'right' to say it in the first place.
Mike |
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delano
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| Mike Prestage wrote: | | Billy B wrote: | | Another thread started by an expert then hi-jacked by "experts" |
This forum would be a lot more enjoyable if there was more willingness to respond to what other members actually say, rather than questioning whether they have the 'right' to say it in the first place.
Mike |
‘Enjoyable’? Never thougt about that. Is that a serious option to strive for? |
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kalijah
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Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3260
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Their model and the physics being applied is unidimensional and almost.certainly incomplete as a result of its reductive nature.
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Not my model. Amstutz's.
The popular myth is: The tongue arch speeds up the air, and the air-speed determines the pitch. THAT is QUITE reductive to attempt to give the tongue credit for pitch control.
Mike wrote:
| Quote: | | The earlier discussion in this thread was in response to the ideas Keith Amstutz presented in the video posted by Jeff Purtle. No one was trying to propose a complete model of how the player + horn system works. As far as I can tell, neither Kalijah's points nor mine rest on assumptions that are unreasonable in the specific context of the discussion. I may well be wrong about that of course! |
You are not wrong.
But the lip tension is the elephant in the room. Why the incessant exercise to explain pitch with ANYTHING BUT the lips themselves? Just dispense with the misunderstood science and move-on. If allowing the tongue to move helps you then do it. But please stop insisting that the tongue gets dominant credit for pitch due to (insert quasi-scientific explanation here).
Anywhoo,
I think that there COULD be a small acoustic leverage for high pitches with a reduction of the oral space but:
1. The lip effort already has the tongue forward naturally so there is zero gain for what already exists.
2. the impedance of the trumpet and the aperture dwarfs any oral tract impedances to the point where they are practically negligible for "trumpet" playing.
As those impedances are less with other instrument, the vocal tract can have more realized and noticeable influence. (Example, trombone. Extreme example, digeridoo.)
My apologies for ducking out of the conversation I was practicing a lot. Is that forbidden? |
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