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Gold Brass vs Rose brass


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Mr Heidi
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:17 pm    Post subject: Gold Brass vs Rose brass Reply with quote

anybody know the sound difference in these?

my Bach is getting sent back to me after 3 years. i forgot to clean it before i left it. It was yellow brass, and now im afraid it could have red rot


if it does, i plan to get a new horn made of gold or rose brass(i hear they dont get red rot.)



anybody know the difference in sound and efficiency between the 2?
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drastic simplification (don't take this too literal);
from hard to soft material, cold to warm sound, better to worse projection, quick to slow response:

1.Yellow brass.
2.Gold brass.
3.Rose/Red brass.
4.Copper.

MvW.
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Mr Heidi
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maarten van Weverwijk wrote:
Drastic simplification (don't take this too literal);
from hard to soft material, cold to warm sound, better to worse projection, quick to slow response:

1.Yellow brass.
2.Gold brass.
3.Rose/Red brass.
4.Copper.

MvW.



so yellow brass actually plays the best





why cant we have the best of both worlds

thanks for the info
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What plays best is mainly a matter of taste.
The best of both worlds *for me* is standard weight gold brass bell on yellow brass corpus.
But we're all different and may not be playing the same kind of music.
You'd have to try and find out what serves you best (without worrying too much about the red rot story). And apart from differences in raw material there are MANY more factors that make an instrument.

MvW.


Last edited by Maarten van Weverwijk on Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mikeman7
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maarten van Weverwijk wrote:
For trumpet the best of both worlds *for me* is standard weight gold brass bell on yellow brass corpus.
But we're all different and may not be playing the same kind of music.
You'd have to try and find out what serves you best (without worrying too much about the red rot story).

MvW.


I concur. Also that is what one typically sees in the industry, a standard (yellow) brass horn with options of a gold brass bell or a rose brass bell.

The more custom makers will offer more options from there such as copper bells, different weight bells in each material etc.
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Mr Heidi
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maarten van Weverwijk wrote:
For trumpet the best of both worlds *for me* is standard weight gold brass bell on yellow brass corpus.
But we're all different and may not be playing the same kind of music.
You'd have to try and find out what serves you best (without worrying too much about the red rot story).

MvW.



forgive me, im not familiar with the details of a trumpet, what on earth is yellow brass corpus?

sorry if i sound ignorant.
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Heidi wrote:
...what on earth is yellow brass corpus?...

Everything but the bell.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corpus is latin for body!!! I can tell you are not Catholic and did not attend Catholic schools or you would know that! Corpus Christi Texas for instance means "Body Christ" latin does not use the same syntax that English does so when spoken it has a different flow to it and you have to insert missing words to make it sound pretty in English translation. Kind of like German or Russian where you do not have 1 for 1 word translation and different sentence structure.

So I would take it to mean that the poster meant Yellow Brass Body. So since he used the word body on purpose it would exclude other major parts like the bell for instance!

The Latin word for bell would be "Campana" but this would refer to hand bells and church bells not sure what the word is for trumpet bell would be in Latin to be honest. I can tell you some kick but pick up lines in Latin and how to flirt with the ladies in Latin and how to order a beer to talk trash to another guy at a club......LOL Why because I had too much time on my hands as a child!LOL
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Mr Heidi
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
Corpus is latin for body!!! I can tell you are not Catholic and did not attend Catholic schools or you would know that! Corpus Christi Texas for instance means "Body Christ" latin does not use the same syntax that English does so when spoken it has a different flow to it and you have to insert missing words to make it sound pretty in English translation. Kind of like German or Russian where you do not have 1 for 1 word translation and different sentence structure.

So I would take it to mean that the poster meant Yellow Brass Body. So since he used the word body on purpose it would exclude other major parts like the bell for instance!

The Latin word for bell would be "Campana" but this would refer to hand bells and church bells not sure what the word is for trumpet bell would be in Latin to be honest. I can tell you some kick but pick up lines in Latin and how to flirt with the ladies in Latin and how to order a beer to talk trash to another guy at a club......LOL Why because I had too much time on my hands as a child!LOL



thanks for the informitive, yet rather long answer



im new to this site, but from i undertand, your posts here are legendary




is it possible to get a trumpet that is all gold/rose brass? or is that not advisable? basically, i want to keep a nice sound without the worry of red rot, i dont have alot of money, and want to get a trumpet that will last for at least most of my lifetime.
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mikeman7
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Heidi wrote:

is it possible to get a trumpet that is all gold/rose brass? or is that not advisable? basically, i want to keep a nice sound without the worry of red rot, i dont have alot of money, and want to get a trumpet that will last for at least most of my lifetime.


look, just buy a trumpet that plays great and sounds great. don't worry about what it's made of. Instead TAKE CARE OF IT! And by that I mean regular baths and blowing out the water when you're done playing it etc. If you do that it will last longer than you will.....


PS. it's hilarious that you already know about The Captain.... LOL.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the copper content increases you tend to have a softer bell because they have to heat it up regularly to keep it from work hardening and cracking or splitting. So because they have to keep softening it up you end up with a softer bell. This assumes we are comparing like bell methods not comparing one piece hand hammered to electroformed copper bell! Apples to Oranges.

At the lower levels like gold brass and rose brass not as labor intensive to work as pure copper. Terms like rose,red and bronze kind of over lap depending on the mill making the brass. I generally go by color when determining if it is truly bronze under another name. If Ihad to chose one material to make all bells out of trumpets I would go with bronze because it bridges the gap between 99.99% Copper and Ordnance Brass. No one has used Yellow brass for instruments since prob. 5 years after WWII tops. Yellow Brass is another name game or lie depending on how you see it. It is lower in grade of brass then ordnance brass and it is almost impossible to find because no major mills that I am aware make it.

So not all of the color and playing attributes of copper content are due in part to just the content of copper int he allow. I would say about 50%-60% of what we attribute to copper content is in fact from the extra copper. The rest is in the working of the material and how it changes as it is worked.

A final annealing before soldering the bell wire can have a very similar effect on how the bell behaves in much the same way that increasing the copper content does.

Generally we assume that as copper content increase the harmonics present in the sound increase and in a complimentary way. We say it is more colorful, has a broader sound, fuller sound etc.....

Yellow brass v.s. Copper for projection is not a cut and dry matter because depending on how the copper bell was made it can radically affect projection. For instance an electroformed heavy copper bell like the type Anderson makes for many companies will out project any yellow brass bell and this is what Conn found long ago. On the other hand a hand hammered one piece copper bell depending on exactly how it is made can either project well or not at all. This is the problem comparing bells from different OEM or made with different methods but the same profile. How you work the metal makes all the difference in the world!

Now from a corrosion stand point copper is the best choice but many people poo-poo it because it does not look traditional and stands out. Well to me Yellow brass being the cheapest material you can use just looks cheap not traditional so if traditional is looking cheap then I hate the cheap look!LOL Rose Brass, Red Brass and Bronze are also fantastic from the stand point of not giving in easily to red-rot. Nickel is also very corrosion resistant both in it's pure form and in the usually 40% Copper alloy and 10% copper allow found in the music trade.

If you are the type that starches his under garmets and has to fit in Biff Biffington then you need to go with gold brass which is a slight improvement. If on the other hand you want it to last forever I would go with bronze especially if you are doing more then just the leadpipe.

M/K already makes Bach tuning slides with bronze,nickel and yellow brass last I checked. I would go with nickel or bronze inner tubes and bronze crook. Same for the leadpipe either bronze or nickel. Bach used to make a nickel leadpipe the Bach 34 pipe is basically a 43 pipe made out of nickel.
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All this discussion of bell materials completely ignores the fact that you'll almost never see red rot in a bell.

The leadpipe and main tuning slide are where you almost always find red rot. Nickel silver is another material that is more resistant to red rot than yellow brass, and it is harder than yellow brass.

Rich Ita (www.brassinstrumentworkshop.com) advertises Pilczuk leadpipes in "nickel" (almost certainly nickel silver). Bach offers the 44 leadpipe in nickel silver. MK Drawing offers Bach and Yamaha leadpipes and tuning slides in nickel silver.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No yellow brass does not play the best. If you want to look like the other guys yellow brass is the color of choice. Gold Brass and Bronze are by far the best materials to use based on sound. Both Gold Brass and Bronze project just fine! This assumes the same material thickness and same manufacturing methods etc.....Anyone that tells you Yellow Brass plays the best is not being very honest and has a huge bias! First no one that has a modern trumpet even has Yellow Brass as I explained earlier! Second as to see the research material on this and I am betting they can not provide any. Why? Because it is does not exist! LOL

The following will show why it is hard to define the terms because companies never tell you exactly what they are using. So when companies use terms like rose brass, red brass, bronze, yellow brass it is far to vague. When I order alloy stock I have to be specific about the alloy I want and if the hardness I desire.

Leaded Semi-Red Brass Alloy C84400: 81% copper, 9% zinc, 7% lead, 3% tin.
Red Brass Alloy 230: 85% copper, 15% zinc
Red Brass Alloy C83400: 90% copper, 10% zinc

Newer bells are usually made of a yellow brass alloy with a much higher zinc content such as (2,3,11):

Cartridge Brass, Alloy 260: 70% copper, 30% zinc
Yellow Brass, Alloy 270: 65% copper, 35% zinc.


These are not all of them either their are all kinds of alloys in use now and many that are not. For instance we do not see Muntz Metal or German Silver any more well not in the entire instrument as least. We do not see Gilding Jacket material intended to make the outer hull of a lead bullet but we used to! This is why it is hard to make a one to one comparison. On top of that you have different heat treatments and manufacturing methods.

I hope this helps a little to explain why you will get different answers from different people. It is not that one person is right and the other is wrong. It is more likely that their experiences are accurate but they did not have other bells made with different methods but the same material to compare.

Projection is mostly about the the weight of the material, the way it is braced and how hard or soft the end product is internally and externally. Since no companies make them identical in that regards it is almost impossible to say anything definitively. A company would have to anneal a yellow brass bell to the same hardness/softness as their copper bell and that is if it has the same methods used to make it and the same mandrel and the same guy spinning it. That is not going to happen any time soon!

Kanstuls copper bells project beautifully but I have heard Callichio copper bells do not project well at all! Two different OEM's two different profiles and two totally different outcomes!

Chose the materials you like and think look good that will last a lifetime and chose the weight of the materials and any annealing based on what you want it to do! You do get some more color as the copper content goes up but other factors still play a bigger role.
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Mr Heidi
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
As the copper content increases you tend to have a softer bell because they have to heat it up regularly to keep it from work hardening and cracking or splitting. So because they have to keep softening it up you end up with a softer bell. This assumes we are comparing like bell methods not comparing one piece hand hammered to electroformed copper bell! Apples to Oranges.

At the lower levels like gold brass and rose brass not as labor intensive to work as pure copper. Terms like rose,red and bronze kind of over lap depending on the mill making the brass. I generally go by color when determining if it is truly bronze under another name. If Ihad to chose one material to make all bells out of trumpets I would go with bronze because it bridges the gap between 99.99% Copper and Ordnance Brass. No one has used Yellow brass for instruments since prob. 5 years after WWII tops. Yellow Brass is another name game or lie depending on how you see it. It is lower in grade of brass then ordnance brass and it is almost impossible to find because no major mills that I am aware make it.

So not all of the color and playing attributes of copper content are due in part to just the content of copper int he allow. I would say about 50%-60% of what we attribute to copper content is in fact from the extra copper. The rest is in the working of the material and how it changes as it is worked.

A final annealing before soldering the bell wire can have a very similar effect on how the bell behaves in much the same way that increasing the copper content does.

Generally we assume that as copper content increase the harmonics present in the sound increase and in a complimentary way. We say it is more colorful, has a broader sound, fuller sound etc.....

Yellow brass v.s. Copper for projection is not a cut and dry matter because depending on how the copper bell was made it can radically affect projection. For instance an electroformed heavy copper bell like the type Anderson makes for many companies will out project any yellow brass bell and this is what Conn found long ago. On the other hand a hand hammered one piece copper bell depending on exactly how it is made can either project well or not at all. This is the problem comparing bells from different OEM or made with different methods but the same profile. How you work the metal makes all the difference in the world!

Now from a corrosion stand point copper is the best choice but many people poo-poo it because it does not look traditional and stands out. Well to me Yellow brass being the cheapest material you can use just looks cheap not traditional so if traditional is looking cheap then I hate the cheap look!LOL Rose Brass, Red Brass and Bronze are also fantastic from the stand point of not giving in easily to red-rot. Nickel is also very corrosion resistant both in it's pure form and in the usually 40% Copper alloy and 10% copper allow found in the music trade.

If you are the type that starches his under garmets and has to fit in Biff Biffington then you need to go with gold brass which is a slight improvement. If on the other hand you want it to last forever I would go with bronze especially if you are doing more then just the leadpipe.

M/K already makes Bach tuning slides with bronhttpze,nickel and yellow brass last I checked. I would go with nickel or bronze inner tubes and bronze crook. Same for the leadpipe either bronze or nickel. Bach used to make a nickel leadpipe the Bach 34 pipe is basically a 43 pipe made out of nickel.


very interesting



can you give me a list of quality makers that offer the copper?

and to add to the question, how affordable is the copper compared to the yellow brass? im thinkin of a copper trumpet not over 33 hundred.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All other things being equal, yellow brass (70% copper/30% zinc, nowadays) is considered to give the greatest combination of brilliance, flexibility and projection. The greater the copper content, the more sensitive the horn can be in producing nuance, but the trade-off is a loss of the highest frequencies that carry the sound out away from the horn.

Nickel silver is indeed resistant to corrosion, but it will stiffen the horn's response. This is fine for horns that are aimed at the orchestral player, or to offset the sloppy slotting of a horn with, say, a large bell taper or other design aspects that tend to smear the note center. It may be one of the strongest reasons for the difference between the typical Bach 37 and a vintage Benge 3X in how they play.

There are products, like Tim Wendt's lead pipe swab or a Blow-dry Brass kit, that will facilitate keeping the horn clean and free from rot, but it comes down to your own body chemistry and appropriate horn maintenance habits, if you want to avoid red rot.

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laurent
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Heidi,

Just two things:

- if you clean your horn regularly you don't have to worry about red rot,

- as for the relation between material and sound it's purely indicative, given that the tone quality also depends on other parameters.

For example my Courtois Evolution IV is a VERY dark and warm sounding horn, although it's 100% yellow brass - or maybe gold brass, I'm not sure, but not rose / red brass nor copper in any case.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

knock, knock, knock... Penny?
knock, knock, knock... Penny?
knock, knock, knock... Penny?

Sheldon posts on the TH.... go figure...
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Mr Heidi
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i see. seems that opinions are varying on this topic.

hopefully when my trumpet arrives(should be in a couple of days, at most a week) it wont have the red rot, and then i wont have to even worry about getting a new horn


my trumpet was a new bach strad 43 that i got in 05. i know it didnt have red rot in 08 the last time i had it. is 3 years to short of a time for it to get the red rot?
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Mr Heidi
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:


There are products, like Tim Wendt's lead pipe swab or a Blow-dry Brass kit, that will facilitate keeping the horn clean and free from rot, but it comes down to your own body chemistry and appropriate horn maintenance habits, if you want to avoid red rot.

Brian



thanks, i will be copping one of these kits and use it after i bathe my horn(3 years without a bath, dont want to even think about how dirty the inside is)
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes and No! If you cherry picked old valve assemblies back when they where cast from bronze then yes....

Their are some OEM that make just about anything you want but not exactly! For instance CarolBrass makes a horn for their domestic market that is all copper except for the valve assembly which is yellow brass. That is about the closest you can get with out having something hand built just for you. Now the good news is that CarolBrass's parent company does make horns from yellow brass, red, brass, gold brass, copper, nickel silver which they have booth 40% and 10% varieties of. So would have to talk to Doug out in California who is the distributor about putting in an order for you with his next order. It will take a little longer and I am sure he will want a little extra but since CarolBrass's prices are already fantastic for the quality of their product it is not going to break the bank!

I know Calicchio will make you an all copper horn so I do not see why they would not be able to do rose, bronze or Gold Brass just as easily. I am going to assume though that no one will make their valve assembly in another material then yellow brass. I do not know this as a fact but I have yet to see one.

I was thinking of having Anderson Plating do a valve assembly for me in copper then I was going to lacquer it to keep it from tarnishing or wearing away. Just so you know when you copper plate a part copper goes on thick compared to most precious metals and it is self leveling except on hard sharp corners. So you can not put much copper on a trumpet part with out changing the dimensions so if you did copper plate parts you would have to lacquer them or you would wear through it in a hurry. A lot of cheaper Chinese student level horns have Phosphurbronze plating most people would just call it copper. You can see some of them on Ebay. These are all lacquered though because you can not put copper on very thick or it will disturb dimensions!



I think Andy Taylor has done an all copper horn and since he use's Bauerfiend valve assemblies I am guessing he would opt for the Bronze version to better match the copper just a guess though.

The only reason most OEM's do not do what you want is cost and no demand. Most people in America that play trumpets have little tiny brains and are ultra conformists so they have to be just like the guy on the right side of them and on the left side of them! Anything different is frowned upon......Because everybody knows the Bach Strad 180 with 37 bell and 25 pipe is the only Professional trumpet worth owning! LOL So for the most part those guys that cater to people not quite so brainwashed like Taylor,Monette,Harrelson are the only ones to really break out of the yellow brass box of conformity other then Chinese horn maker's and Taiwan horn maker's.......Sure you see some models by domestics with bronze or copper bells like Kanstul but you do not see it much! I am thinking he sells more copper belled and bronze belled trumpet to third parties he builds horns for then he sells under his own name brand.

So no their is nothing wrong with using a higher grade of materials to build the horn from nothing magical about yellow brass other then it is made in huge amounts and is cheaper then higher copper alloy metals made in lower amounts.

Focus the expensive alloys where it can do the most good like the leadpipe and main tuning slide. Then select a bell material and weight to suite your needs. I think Gold Brass and Bronze are by the far the best alloys for making a bell out of. Adding that extra bit of Copper to go from Bronze to 99.99% Copper add's a lot of expense and I do not think it add's much when compared to bronze which is much easier for your bell maker to work with. If I was going to have my own line of trumpets made for me by Kanstul I would want the leadpipes and main tuning slide crooks made out of either nickel or bronze and all my bells would be offered in either gold brass or bronze. I think that with selective annealing I could make just about any sound I wanted to with either gold brass or bronze. I would not feel handicapped not having copper in the mix! A light weight bronze bell is in my opinion the ultimate bell for Jazz and any place you want a lot of sizzle when you step on it but want to be able to whisper softly as well. If you going to go heavier then standard weight bell I think it is wasteful to use Bronze or Copper really and it is hard for a lot of people to hear themselves might as well use Gold Brass and save a few pennys to pass along to the customer. It will also give them better feedback behind the bell then a heavy copper or heavy bronze bell.

One of the complaints a lot of people that try Taylors Standard Chicago model is lack of feedback behind the bell. A lot of people think his horns are dead but their not they just feel dead behind the bell! I bet that his bell profile in yellow brass or gold brass would be more to their liking because it would give just a hint more feedback. The bell is 50% heavier then standard and has a higher copper content and it is a two piece bell. That is a lot for someone used to a standard weight yellow brass once piece hand hammered bell to account for! I think his horns are brilliant and I love them and Jassons horns but I think that is why some times you can get too much of a good thing!

I have a copper bell sitting right next to me from Andersons. I have some gold brass bells upstairs. I also have yellow brass bells and a Bronze bell. Most of them are Bach 72 profiles but one is a Pre War Besson Profile made in slightly heavier then standard weight Bronze. All of them are fantastic and all of them have their place. Oh I forgot I also have a 1950 Besson ultralight weight yellow brass bell that is silver plated! Each is different and was made to do something different none of them are bad just different! So keep that in mind while I hate that people think yellow brass is the best material I do not hate the material just the lies that keep people thinking yellow brass is the best material to make anything on a trumpet out of. It is the standard of today but it is not by a long shot the best material!

Just like it is also not true that one piece hand hammered bells are the best bells! LOL Plenty of world class trumpets and cornets that are made either today or inthe past had two piece bells! Lets see all Pre War Bessons, All Olds trumpets except the Ultra Sonic, all Monettes, all Taylor Trumpets, All H.N. Whites up to a point, most Conn's that are world class in status had two piece bells, all those lusted after Martins Comm horns, those fantastic Boston Vega's and on and on all have or had two piece bells. I do not care either way a horn can be fantastic with either method or can be garbage with either method!

My point do not buy into absolutes because reality almost never supports absolutes everything in the real world is almost always shades of gray! For instance I am sure that those copper bells on those $89 Chinese horns do not sound and play as good as the $400 Copper bells that Kanstul sells! The best materials in the world are useless unless the hands that shape them know what their are doing because the devil is always in the details!
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