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Rwwilson
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Joined: 13 Sep 2019
Posts: 188
Location: Austin Texas
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 Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:21 am Post subject: Modern trumpet suggestions for a vintage trumpet player |
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| I hesitated to post this for fear of the variety of responses that I will get but here goes. I’m a vintage trumpet player because of my age and my collection. My goto trumpet is an Olds Recording from the early 50’s. I play at every opportunity so this means civic bands, big bands and even polka bands. I’m looking to buy a more modern trumpet because they are reported to be easier playing and more efficient. I’m now in Montana so I have almost no opportunity to actually check out horns buy playing them. With this background, I’m seeking suggestions. |
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cgaiii
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Location: Virginia USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:46 am Post subject: |
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I think perhaps it would be better if you cited some characteristics you are looking for. For example, I have never played an Olds Recording (though I would love to get a chance), so I have nothing to go on.
Do you like an open horn? Do you want some resistance, etc.
I often think the horn that is easiest to play is the one we are most used to, but if we know what you are seeking to improve, I am sure there will be a plethora of suggestions based on our own personal experience and prejudices.
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Aaronis
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Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 87
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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I would agree that modern horns overall play better. I'm not saying this is always the case because there are a lot of factors in play-ability, but I would say overall that's a true statement.
For a modern horn I think Yamaha has some good stuff. Take a look at the YTR-6335. Solid horn from what I understand and I think you can get them at a reasonable price as well.
If you have the budget, you could look into the Schilke horns. They have a lot of options and are great horns. I have a B6 and it plays wonderfully.
There's also the tried and true Bach Strad's.
IMO as long as you get a quality reputable horn in good condition (if not new), I think it would be hard to be disappointed.
I wouldn't over think it. Doing that gets me frustrated. One thing that helped me was just good old internet research and online vids that helped me make my horn decisions. Good luck to you, being in the market for a new horn is exciting!
Austin
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2018 Schilke B6
1980's CG Selmer
1976 CG L.A. Benge
1955 Mt. Vernon Bach
1947 Olds Super
Holton Revelation Model 48
1964 Holton Galaxy Cornet |
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deleted_user_687c31b
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Joined: 03 Apr 1996
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Not quite sure I agree. The op is playing an Olds Recording, which even by today’s standards is a very good instrument. Finding a production horn that surpasses it will be tough.
Mind you, I too play an Olds Recording so I’m somewhat biased. But a tech I recently visited confirmed the quality of the instrument, stating that its a very good horn indeed (he even played it for me to show why). He then went on to list various modern ‘improvements’ that were added to reduce manufacturing costs rather than improve the quality of the final product. A while ago, someone looking to get a new horn tried my Recording and found it easier to play than his Bach strad.
Not saying there isn’t a better horn out there, but if it were up to me, I’d take my Recording over a Yamaha, Shillke or Bach strad any day of the week. |
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Rwwilson
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Joined: 13 Sep 2019
Posts: 188
Location: Austin Texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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First let me apologize for the double post. I don’t know how it happened.
Second, besides mass produced horns I am also interested in opinions on others such as those made by Adams for example.
Finally, what I am looking for is an increased ease of playing; less effort and more secure slotting in the high range. |
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Andy Cooper
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Joined: 15 Nov 2001
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Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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You might consider the Bach Vindobona - nice dark playing trumpet. That and the Recording were always my favorites.
But you really should just budget $500 or 600 for travel and lodging to a place where you could try several horns in one day.
Austin Custom Brass comes to mind (Trent seems to have all the really nice toys) - round trip plane fare fare would be 300 to 500 from Bozeman to Kansas City. In the long run, this could be cheaper than spending $100 two way shipping (plus re-stocking) per horn just to try some trumpets. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Rwwilson wrote: | First let me apologize for the double post. I don’t know how it happened.
Second, besides mass produced horns I am also interested in opinions on others such as those made by Adams for example.
Finally, what I am looking for is an increased ease of playing; less effort and more secure slotting in the high range. |
The goals you mention are most often the reasons stated (including by myself in other posts) for favoring new equipment. Put simply, I (obviously) enjoy vintage horns and understanding as well as experiencing the evolution of the instrument as embodied in key examples across the last century. I used a 22B-early on Easter because it gave me the "trumpety" sound I wanted for that particular performance. However, in general, I prefer the better balance of native intonation with flexible centering, superior blend of ease of response with stability against me pushing too hard that comes from modern more efficient heavy designs ("feels heavy, blows light"), and the response and tonal character of modern bells.
When it comes to that "feels heavy blows light" balance of stability at higher dynamics with ease of response when playing soft or relaxed, I think Taylor leads the pack in design right now. There are interesting brighter offerings from Edwards/Getzen. Schilke has long been a player in this arena. On the lighter weight but not unstable side of the spectrum there are several lightweight 72 equivalents out there that really do this well such as BAC Z72, Kanstul 1503 & 1504 - vintage I suppose now, and even actual Bach LR18072 (particularly if you add a looser-centering MK SR unbraced slide).
All of these offer improved native intonation, more flexible tonal characteristics and faster response due to modern bell making, and, a variety of centering strengths ranging from fairly tight Bach to very loose Schike. Additionally, valves are made better today as a consequence of both modern machining and improved processes. As a result, valves are more reliable - even when the temperature or humidity is way outside the norm.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Rwwilson wrote: | | Finally, what I am looking for is an increased ease of playing; less effort and more secure slotting in the high range. |
There is no "modern" trumpet that will provide you with any game-changing significant improvement in ease of playing, amount of effort required or more secure slotting in the high range compared to your Olds Recording if your Olds Recording is in good playing condition.
I have a collection of over 50 trumpets. My collection includes a 1962 Olds Recording as well as several "modern" trumpets (Elkhart Bach Strad 72* and 25 large bore, Calicchio 1s/2 and 3R/9, Schilke B1L, B5LB, B6LB and B7L and AdamsA8).
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blownchops
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Joined: 15 Apr 2020
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: | | Rwwilson wrote: | | Finally, what I am looking for is an increased ease of playing; less effort and more secure slotting in the high range. |
There is no "modern" trumpet that will provide you with any game-changing significant improvement in ease of playing, amount of effort required or more secure slotting in the high range compared to your Olds Recording if your Olds Recording is in good playing condition.
I have a collection of over 50 trumpets. My collection includes a 1962 Olds Recording as well as several "modern" trumpets (Elkhart Bach Strad 72* and 25 large bore, Calicchio 1s/2 and 3R/9, Schilke B1L, B5LB, B6LB and B7L and AdamsA8). |
I own a few "desirable" vintage horns and my Yamaha xeno gives me the most comfort and security of all of them.
To the op, I would strongly reccomend a modern gen Xeno, (an 8335G for a dark sound) or its souped up cousin, the New York or Chicago artist models. Great horns all around. |
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blbaumgarn
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Joined: 26 Jul 2017
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:55 pm Post subject: Modern trumpet suggestons for a vintage trumpet player |
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I don't agree that new trumpets play better than old ones. They may. If the old trumpets were all junk no one would fight for their Olds recording or their Martin Committee, or that special Mt. Vernon Bach. Sir, of all the modern trumpets Yamaha makes many good ones, which are consistent and quality made. So do others. Schilke makes great stuff, as does Getzen.
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"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Well, after a long multi-horn journey, I pretty much gave up on old horns. Not because they necessarily were worse than the newer ones but for consistency of the product at the point of sale and for return policies and warranties that were customer-friendly.
Yes, I've gotten good used horns and, if you have established creds with a seller, you might get a flexible return policy, but the law says simply that, once you pay for a used item, it's yours. "Caveat emptor."
Frankly, whenever I've bough a used horn, I've usually known that I also set aside some extra coin for some tweaking-to-overhauls by some excellent craftsmen, thereby making the overall cost higher than what meets the eye.
I have never gotten what I wasn't expecting but if I was new to all of this, I would be very cautious.
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Last edited by kehaulani on Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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huntman10
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Joined: 30 Aug 2017
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Location: Texas South Plains
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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My 1947 Olds Super Recording plays easier than my late 50's Recording!! The tone has an entirely different character...
I would ask if you have had your Recording serviced recently by someone who really knows how to align the valves and get the goo out of the tubing? Has made many a fine old horn an "easier playing new model!"
But, I also have to admit that I have had opportunity to play a lot of newer horns that are easy blowing, satisfying horns. I have sold some horns for friends breaking up their collection, and regret not trying to set aside enough to keep a Taylor here, a Schilke S32 there. But I get good service from my older stuff. All 80 of them! 
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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Rwwilson
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Joined: 13 Sep 2019
Posts: 188
Location: Austin Texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| My Recording is in excellent playing condition with no visible corrosion in the lead pipe, no dents and excellent valves that have been professionally aligned. I did not mean to suggest I was unhappy with how it plays. I have just read so many posts and ads that claim great things about newer, especially custom horns that I can’t help but wonder if I’m missing some advantage. |
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deleted_user_687c31b
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Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Rwwilson wrote: | | My Recording is in excellent playing condition with no visible corrosion in the lead pipe, no dents and excellent valves that have been professionally aligned. I did not mean to suggest I was unhappy with how it plays. I have just read so many posts and ads that claim great things about newer, especially custom horns that I can’t help but wonder if I’m missing some advantage. |
I think I understand what you mean. It certainly wouldn’t hurt to try some and compare. All I meant to say is that you already have a very, very good horn (even moreso after your description of it) so finding a modern horn that’s even better won’t be easy. Or cheap.
Take Trent Austin for example. He’s played a huge number of trumpets over the years, and up until recently, his personal collection had a number of vintage horns in it. The ones he’s replaced them with are high end custom horns like his Coppernicus.
I think Andy Cooper’s suggestion is a good one: visit a place that has lots of high quality horns (like ACB) that are also able to advise you in your search. Your local music store just isn’t gonna have a horn that’s miles better than that Recording you’re fortunate enough to own. 
Good luck and enjoy the hunt.
EDIT: come to think of it, if there’s someone who knows which modern horn would be a good upgrade from an Olds Recording, it’s probably Trent Austin. Might wanna ask him for suggestions.
Last edited by deleted_user_687c31b on Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Rwwilson wrote: | | My Recording is in excellent playing condition with no visible corrosion in the lead pipe, no dents and excellent valves that have been professionally aligned. I did not mean to suggest I was unhappy with how it plays. I have just read so many posts and ads that claim great things about newer, especially custom horns that I can’t help but wonder if I’m missing some advantage. |
I think you have rightly identified the reality of the situation. Technology advances in any active field, and brass-making is no exception. The consistency in hydroforming bells - but only the blanks, the blending of precision machine tools with hand alignment, buffing, etc. by the ever-fewer skilled craftsmen, the advances made in the last third of a century in damping of independent resonators and optimization of acoustic couplings, more uniform alloys, the work of Schilke and Autrey on leadipes and the inter-relationship of tapers, the work of Cardwell on frequency optimization in bell form, the improved ability to control material thickness not just in the bell, but in drawn tubing, new techniques and tools for assuring better joints - it's a long list - all come into play to create the consistency of Xeno horns, the unique character yet robust quality of modern Bach, the response and color of CarolBrass, the stability and richness of Taylor that is there at the slightest input, and of course the tendency of a Schilke to give the player exactly what they ask of it (not force from it) are all aspects of the progress in design and manufacturing technology.
We have heard from several folks who are really into vintage horns, and who have collected a respectable number of examples. Take it from one of us who see those collections as "getting started": when you are performing, there is no substitute for having the best tool in your hands for the job. Sometimes that will be a certain vintage horn. Most times, it will be something with the aforementioned advantages and fewer quirks.
That being said, your last sentence hot the nail on the head. We are all different and what is "easy" for me may not be "easy" for you. This is where custom and semi-custom horns come into the mix. Carol offers a broad range of options and will build special-order if you are patient. Working with a maker in Taiwan obviously can be a challenge though. People often forget that Bach is the same, and is in the middle of North America in Elkhart, where they routinely welcome visitors looking to understand their options before ordering custom. Schilke started out run like a true custom shop, and that spirit has never left their similarly located enterprise. Their people are great to work with. Taylor basically still is a custom builder like Monette and Harrelson. BAC similarly has offered true custom builds for several years in addition to their primarily stencil line now expanding into full making. Of course, there is nothing that can equal a real custom shop - my favorite is Austin Winds in Austin Texas (not to be confused with ACB in Kansas City), but AW fits my tonal concept, it might not be well aligned with yours.
So there are options, and opportunities - how much you can spend on the journey of course determines how many you can explore in depth. I recommend you start out with a play-cation to a retailer with a huge inventory like Dillon in New Jersey or Brass Instrument Workshop in Georgia and play a lot of horns to see what features seem to consistently work for you. Then, you can start thinking about customizing (unless the perfect horn lands in your hands in the process in which case BUY IT!)
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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huntman10
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Joined: 30 Aug 2017
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Location: Texas South Plains
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Well, that is in part marketing, but there certainly are wonderful things out there to try. I think you would certainly enjoy grabbing your favorite mouthpiece and trying a few. Not sure if you feel you need justification to strike out on a horn quest to justify such a trip.
I will always reflect back on my trip to the International Trumpet Guild at San Antonio in 2018 and all the marvels I got to try. I suppose post COVID, we may not be as eager to try promiscuous horn trials but it was sure fun while my poor bruised chops lasted!
I didn’t find any Bb’s I liked better than the ones I had (did have the cutest little Kanstul piccolo follow me home) and my wife had a great time meeting famous and ordinary folk for the whole time. But, I digress.
I see nothing wrong with studying horn catalogues like some folks look over travel brochures and finding someplace to experience them.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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huntman10
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Location: Texas South Plains
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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Double post deleted.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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mike ansberry
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Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Posts: 1607
Location: Clarksville, Tn
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| huntman10 wrote: | | My 1947 Olds Super Recording plays easier than my late 50's Recording!! The tone has an entirely different character... |
I have an L.A. early 1950's model. I also have a Fullerton 1960's model. The L.A. is a completely different beast. Plays much like my 1947 Super Recording.
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Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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Manuel de los Campos
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Rwwilson wrote: | | I have just read so many posts and ads that claim great things about newer, especially custom horns that I can’t help but wonder if I’m missing some advantage. |
I once walked that path so I layed my hands on a XO-Brass 1600i, curious if it would be so much better than my Conn 22B Victor 1954.
Valves? Both horns had very good valves
Range? No difference between the modern horn and the vintage
Sound? Both trumpets sounded like trumpets which I like
Slotting? There was the big difference: The X0-Brass had a much tighter (precize) slotting but to me it was not 'better' just tighter and I didn't like it so I sold the XO-Brass
I guess every quality horn, new or vintage has it's own qualities and it's only a matter of time a modern horn will be vintage as well. Don't expect miracles from a new(er) instrument simply because you are the instrument
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Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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stevericks
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Posts: 114
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:30 am Post subject: |
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If you like Olds horns, why not go with a modern horn made by the guy who likely oversaw the making of your Olds? Ziggy Kanstul. When he left a Olds he eventually opened his own shop -Kanstul. Though recently closed there are a number of them around (I eVen have a couple to spare). Kanstul horns are excellently made and sought after. Many (including myself) say they are better than Strads (it is all personal opinion)- I also own 6 Strads. Anyway, if you like Olds, why not find the modern version which would be the Kanstul brand?
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Steve
Olds, Kanstul, Bach |
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