A Weighty Question

[Andy Cooper]

OK - I watched a YouTube video and got inspired to, yet again, try weights on my mouthpiece and bottom valve caps. I tried out the horn in a live practice room, then an empty auditorium. WOW - it was great - why haven't I been using them all these years?

Then I went to Community Band and plopped myself down in the middle of the section. Immediately things went south.

The horn felt stuffy, I found it more difficult to play in tune. I started shedding weights till eventually I was down to a washer in the third valve cap and a twist of solder wire around the throat of my mouthpiece. Then - everything was fine.

Obviously I'm missing something here.

Do weights only work in ensembles with $10,000 horns using mouthpieces with #14 throats?

Is there a way to overcome the feedback problem that happens when you are immersed in the section?

[Brassnose]

Ha, when I had my comeback in 2014 I thought exactly the same. I wanted to buy a heavy horn and liked the sound and I got into the dark sounding horns and all. After getting back in shape and playing quite some gigs over the last years I have sold all my Monette mouthpieces and am down to one Bach heavy cap on my Bach. This IS a good and useful support but costs next to nothing if you buy used and is reversible.

In fact I know prefer lighter horns such as my Schmidt rotary or regular weight horns such as my Bach. Glad I didn’t jump the gun and bought one of them heavy horns. The only one I’d like to test is the Courtois Evolution series just because (and they look cool, too). Turns out, I really like clear and brighter sounding horns much better both as a listener and a player. I look at the bright side of life

So the heaviest equipment I now own is my Lotus mouthpiece (which feels significantly lighter than Monette - must weigh it) and my bass trumpet.
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1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[kehaulani]

"It's not nice to fool Mother Nature."
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Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Crazy Finn]

I can't help you. I've had the same experience, although usually I hate added weight long before I get in a rehearsal.

My most recent experience.

I even took off the third valve slide stop rod and nuts from my Benge during break in rehearsal because they were effecting how the horn responded.

Those parts were missing on my horn for years. I was working music retail and we had an attached repair shop. I finally had my tech buddy reattach one of the posts that was missing and then I added the rod and nuts. Finally, it was complete! Oddly enough the Benge design didn't have a soldered rod (maybe?) so it would sometimes not line up and I'd have to tighten or loosen it.

I got the rehearsal and it was playing.... alright, but something was missing. Frankly, I though it was me and how I was playing. Then my rod starting catching on the post, so after fiddling around with it, I just took it off. Presto, my horn sang, again. Instantly. I haven't put them back on, since.

I've tinkered around with heavy caps, heavy mouthpieces, etc. Most of the time, they don't last long on my horn. So, maybe I'm the wrong person to ask.
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[RETrumpet]

[zaferis]

I think you stumbled onto something that I find with my own setups and others that show up with some, what I consider to be, odd or crazy setups.

What sounds and feels good in the practice room does not sound or work as well at the gig / rehearsal.

As an example, I find that my Bach 184 cornet sounds really warm and smooth with 3 Curry heavy bottom valve caps (along with the other tweeks I have made). BUT in application, in an ensemble, it loses some of it's tonal presence, and I find it's more difficult to play in-tune. I've settled into standard wieght bottom caps with a tone ring on #3, Curry valve stems, brass valve guides, and with the oem thumb trigger assemble removed a crook weight (mouthpieceexpress) on #1 valve slide.

I agree with the experimentation of weight(s) in smaller doses, over longer periods of time, and in various situations to zero in your preferences.
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[Andy Cooper]

It's looking like I need to locate a set of Mark Ridenour's TweeQers though I think sterling silver is overkill.

[shofarguy]

During the early 2010s, I did a fair amount of testing with weighted caps and stems for Flip Oakes' accessory sets. He had three different weights of bottom caps, O-rings and heavy top caps, stems and finger buttons, all made for him by Picket Brass, I believe.

The two of us played through every combination of weights and tuning slides for both the Wild Thing and Celebration. We worked to quantify the effects for some three hours straight. I kept the prototype set of weights for a couple of years and would experiment with them, periodically.

In the end, the stock setup just played better. I don't think there was any combination that gave a real improvement in any one aspect. They just made things different and usually much more finicky. I even tried lighter bottom caps borrowed from my WT flugelhorn. The only time I felt that a certain set of weighted caps made an improvement was when the pads in my valves had swelled up from the valve oil and were out of alignment. Flip changed the pad material and realigned the pistons. Then, the horn didn't play as well with those weights. Stock was the best.

Was it just what I was used to? Probably, that had a lot to do with it, but over time the stock horn just responded better throughout the full spectrum of playing. It was more predictable and more intuitive. I don't ever mess with weights, anymore.

The same sort of thing goes, to a lesser extent, with the eight tuning slides Flip offered. In the end, I found the one I like best (#1-J slide) and none of the others gave me enough real advantage to make me switch.

Why?

I think a good development player, like Flip Oakes or Charlie Davis, has a finely tuned sense of how a good trumpet should play and feel. Once they have finalized a design, it's pretty hard to improve it, simply because they've already done that work. That may not always be the case, but I think all but a few of us are much less capable of making real improvements.
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[Andy Cooper]

[Andy Cooper]

[yourbrass]

[yourbrass]

[Andy Cooper]

[Andy Cooper]

[Crazy Finn]

[yourbrass]

[Andy Cooper]

[oliver king]

Is it reasonable to expect a standard weight horn with added weight to play as well as (or better than) a horn built with a thicker gauged material and a heavier bell?
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B2MS3, B2GS3,

[Andy Cooper]

[shofarguy]

Andy,

In response to your question of feedback, I've noticed that different mouthpiece blank designs can give different levels of feedback. I'm thinking of a certain mouthpiece I owned that had a Bach style blank and a similar spec mouthpiece made with the standard smooth Curry blank. The Bach blank gave much better feedback. It might be the "tone ring" at the waist of the blank that does it. I can't really say.

It might also help to get your mouthpiece cut for Reeves Sleeves and adjust the receiver gap.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.