Valve venting

cujazztrpt · Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:37 pm Post subject: Valve venting

What will this do? I heard of some company where they actually take the compression off the 1st and 3rd slide??? Why??

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Fusion2002 · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:14 am Post subject:

It's vented so you can easily move the 1st and 3rd valve slides out/in without the coresponding valves down.

Lippy1 · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:49 am Post subject:

It is an option on Edwards trumpets.
http://www.edwards-instruments.com/
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Mlockman · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:59 am Post subject:

I have always wondered about valve venting. Is there any down side, disadvantages? Seems like a good idea. Is it worth doing it to my Bach horns.
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jsmn4vu · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:25 am Post subject:

Bill Bryant · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:30 am Post subject:

You have to be sure your third valve slide stop isn't loose or you'll drop your slide and damage it. This can't happen with the Bach-style stop, but it is an ever-present danger with the Schilke-Yamaha type.

Yammie · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:40 am Post subject: Venting

The biggest downside I could see is that every time you pick your horn off the horn stand, you have to pull the third slide back up off the stop. I think that'd get old quick, but maybe it's an easy adjustment.

Anyone out there with a vented third valve care to comment?
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dacman · Veteran Member Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 199 Location: WA

I have to do that anyway, my third valve slide extends in a matter of seconds when it is put on a stand. This happens on both my Bach trumpet and my Lawler Cornet. The only way I can prevent the slide from falling down is use thicker grease, but then it is not fast enough when I play. Am I the only one that has this problem?
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Flip Oakes · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:43 am Post subject:

I used to think it was a good idea, and I vented my #3 piston on my personal trumpets, until one day a customer came over and pointed out to me how it changed the sound of his horn only when the 3rd valve was used when playing a Harmon mute. Every time he would use either 1-3, 2-3, 1-2-3, combination or just #3 the sound would change, sort of a hollow sound, I too was surprised as I had never detected it before. I had at his request also vented his 3rd piston, and after playing it for a few weeks, he brought it back with this comment. We put in a standard un vented piston, and it was gone, everything was even sounding again. Of course I switched mine back to the un-vented piston again as well. I hardy ever play with mutes, and when I did it wasn’t recognizable on faster bop style passages, however on ballad playing as he used it for it was.... Until that day I though it was a great idea to vent #3 pistons.

If anyone wants to come by, and hear this for yourself I would be more then happy to have you..... Please just, email or call first, and we’ll setup a time, I wouldn’t want to miss you, if I should happen to be out.

All The Best,

Flip Oakes

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Bill Bryant · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:18 am Post subject:

Flip, I don't doubt what you're saying, but I'm at a loss to understand, from an acoustics/physics perspective, what would cause this.

A tiny hole has been drilled in the piston so that it lines up with a third valve port when the valve is up. When the piston is depressed, the hole in the piston is lined up with the wall of the valve casing below the port and we would assume, in a good horn, is sealed pretty tight. As I visualize this to myself I can't picture how the vent hole would change the timbre of any note from any valve combination.

Again, I don't doubt a good player's actual experience; I just can't understand what's causing it.

I'd like to hear from Getzen/Edwards, Lawler, Monette, Kanstul or another horn maker about this.

tbrinson · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:32 am Post subject:

I personally enjoy the vented pistons on my Gen X. I think venting the valves actually helps to keep compression within the piston casings. When my Yamaha was new, the third valve slide was easy to move only when the third valve was pressed (as it should be). However, over time the valve began to lose compression. I imagine this is caused by several different reasons. I think the main one is you just sit there in your chair and unconscously move your slides in and out. This constant change of pressure in the third slide causes air and microscopic pieces of crud to grind into you valves eventually creating a "big" gap between the valve and the valve casing inner-wall (thus, the loss of compression). The vented valve prevents a more drastic change in valve slide air pressure because the changes are releaved through the bottom valve cap.

I wouldn't notice a difference in the way the Gen X plays because I bought it vented. I also bought a YaMalone from a former Atlanta Symphony Orchestra principal trumpet player who did the venting on that instrument himself. That horn played like a dream.

I'm not a scientist . . . just a band director.
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Flip Oakes · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:42 am Post subject:

tbrinson · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:09 am Post subject:

Flip,

Is there any way you could make a recording comparing the two? I'd love to hear the difference.

I agree with the above posts in that I don't understand how it makes such a big difference, however, I guess its possible.
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the chief · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:49 pm Post subject:

Flip, I wonder if just venting the #3 piston is what causes the odd sound with the Harmon mute. Have you noticed this with all 3 valves vented?

I played two Kanstul horns of the same model, one without and one with vented valves, side-by-side. The vented valves did a couple things to improve the trumpet. For one, the valves all moved a lot faster and lighter. Secondly, when slurring from note-to-note, the notes had a more crisp definition. It also opened up the blow of the horn a little.
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Bill Bryant · Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:54 pm Post subject:

JazzBird · Veteran Member Joined: 22 Aug 2004 Posts: 251

I had the 3rd valve vented on all Bbs that I owned (cost was about $100 for the mod). In my opinion I think this should be a standard feature...since it really makes it easier to use the 3rd valve slide and I personally found I used it during a lot more to stay in tune during faster passages than I would without the vented slide. I have never understood while all makers don't have this as either a standard or at least optional feature when ordering (as along as you have a stop of course on the slide

dan_ostler · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:41 am Post subject:

I tried out a horn like that, and the fact that the third valve slide would slide out to full extension just from the effects of gravity drove me nuts...you had to pull the slide in every time you picked up the horn
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Angie811 · Veteran Member Joined: 27 Oct 2004 Posts: 289 Location: KY

I Had that done on my Benge 3X - it didn't bother me that I had to keep pulling in my 3rd slide, but it did stop the popping sound (pressure). It's really only a good idea if you are playing orchestral excerpts. (there is one in particular that this really helps on - I can't remember which)

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tpetplyr · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:41 am Post subject:

blasticore · Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:08 pm Post subject:

Flip made the point I was going to. Your sound will change when the compression of your horn does. My horn actually has very poor compression. My valves are fine, but all my slides are loose and leaky at the contact points (my second valve slide is being held in with a rubber band). Honestly, I sound like I'm playing on a leaky horn, and rightfully so. Though, it's consistently leaky, since the slide that air will always pass through while you play (the tuning slide) also has the same issue. Having one valve vented (essentially, stripping it of any compression), any fingering combination involving that valve slide will be shaped differently.
I don't personally recommend valve venting, but if you can make it work, all the power to you. Some like it, and some don't.

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