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cujazztrpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jul 2003 Posts: 697 Location: Jacksonville,FL
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:37 pm Post subject: Valve venting |
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What will this do? I heard of some company where they actually take the compression off the 1st and 3rd slide??? Why?? _________________ Playing music is better than playing notes!
www.soundclick.com/cujazztrpt |
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Fusion2002 Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Posts: 176 Location: Inver Grove Heights MN
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:14 am Post subject: |
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It's vented so you can easily move the 1st and 3rd valve slides out/in without the coresponding valves down. |
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Lippy1 Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 198 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:49 am Post subject: |
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It is an option on Edwards trumpets.
http://www.edwards-instruments.com/ _________________ - Scott
Schilke B2L
----------------------------------------------------- |
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Mlockman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Feb 2004 Posts: 653 Location: Pittsburgh
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:59 am Post subject: |
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I have always wondered about valve venting. Is there any down side, disadvantages? Seems like a good idea. Is it worth doing it to my Bach horns. _________________ Bach Strad 37/25
Bach Strad LT 43 /25
Bach Strad C 229 25H CL,
Couesnon Flugelhorn 1970
Warburton WCC mouthpiece
Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia
AFM |
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jsmn4vu Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jul 2004 Posts: 747 Location: Fayetteville, GA
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:25 am Post subject: |
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Mlockman wrote: | I have always wondered about valve venting. Is there any down side, disadvantages? |
Biggest downside I see is that when you try to sell it, someone with only a little knowledge will insist the valves are shot. Others? _________________ John Miller
Peachtree Wind Ensemble |
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Bill Bryant Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 1570 Location: Rapid City, SD
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:30 am Post subject: |
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You have to be sure your third valve slide stop isn't loose or you'll drop your slide and damage it. This can't happen with the Bach-style stop, but it is an ever-present danger with the Schilke-Yamaha type. |
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Yammie Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Feb 2005 Posts: 819 Location: sunny Sarasota, FL
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:40 am Post subject: Venting |
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The biggest downside I could see is that every time you pick your horn off the horn stand, you have to pull the third slide back up off the stop. I think that'd get old quick, but maybe it's an easy adjustment.
Anyone out there with a vented third valve care to comment? _________________ 6340S, Connstellation 36B, 38B, 38A, and 28A, Couesnon flugel, Blackburn C, Kanstul/Besson 920 picc, and a HUGE pile of Messina Covers gig bags |
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dacman Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 199 Location: WA
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:26 am Post subject: |
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I have to do that anyway, my third valve slide extends in a matter of seconds when it is put on a stand. This happens on both my Bach trumpet and my Lawler Cornet. The only way I can prevent the slide from falling down is use thicker grease, but then it is not fast enough when I play. Am I the only one that has this problem? _________________ Authorized Dealer of Eclipse Trumpets
Don Cornelius
Braw Brass
http://www.brawbrass.com
info@brawbrass.com |
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Flip Oakes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2002 Posts: 532 Location: Oceanside, CA USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:43 am Post subject: |
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I used to think it was a good idea, and I vented my #3 piston on my personal trumpets, until one day a customer came over and pointed out to me how it changed the sound of his horn only when the 3rd valve was used when playing a Harmon mute. Every time he would use either 1-3, 2-3, 1-2-3, combination or just #3 the sound would change, sort of a hollow sound, I too was surprised as I had never detected it before. I had at his request also vented his 3rd piston, and after playing it for a few weeks, he brought it back with this comment. We put in a standard un vented piston, and it was gone, everything was even sounding again. Of course I switched mine back to the un-vented piston again as well. I hardy ever play with mutes, and when I did it wasn’t recognizable on faster bop style passages, however on ballad playing as he used it for it was.... Until that day I though it was a great idea to vent #3 pistons.
If anyone wants to come by, and hear this for yourself I would be more then happy to have you..... Please just, email or call first, and we’ll setup a time, I wouldn’t want to miss you, if I should happen to be out.
All The Best,
Flip Oakes
Flip Oakes
“Wild Thing Trumpets”
COME AND HEAR THE DIFFERENCE
http://www.flipoakes.com
“To read what Wild Thing Owners say about their horns, click on this”
http://www.flipoakes.com/testimonials.htm
Flip Oakes
2559 Mottino Dr.
Oceanside, Ca. 92056-3421
760-643-1501
760-643-1511 Fax
To Hear the Flip Oakes Wild Thing Trumpet go to
http://www.flipoakes.com/multimedia.htm
Last edited by Flip Oakes on Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bill Bryant Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 1570 Location: Rapid City, SD
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Flip, I don't doubt what you're saying, but I'm at a loss to understand, from an acoustics/physics perspective, what would cause this.
A tiny hole has been drilled in the piston so that it lines up with a third valve port when the valve is up. When the piston is depressed, the hole in the piston is lined up with the wall of the valve casing below the port and we would assume, in a good horn, is sealed pretty tight. As I visualize this to myself I can't picture how the vent hole would change the timbre of any note from any valve combination.
Again, I don't doubt a good player's actual experience; I just can't understand what's causing it.
I'd like to hear from Getzen/Edwards, Lawler, Monette, Kanstul or another horn maker about this. |
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tbrinson Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jan 2004 Posts: 186 Location: Augusta, GA
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:32 am Post subject: |
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I personally enjoy the vented pistons on my Gen X. I think venting the valves actually helps to keep compression within the piston casings. When my Yamaha was new, the third valve slide was easy to move only when the third valve was pressed (as it should be). However, over time the valve began to lose compression. I imagine this is caused by several different reasons. I think the main one is you just sit there in your chair and unconscously move your slides in and out. This constant change of pressure in the third slide causes air and microscopic pieces of crud to grind into you valves eventually creating a "big" gap between the valve and the valve casing inner-wall (thus, the loss of compression). The vented valve prevents a more drastic change in valve slide air pressure because the changes are releaved through the bottom valve cap.
I wouldn't notice a difference in the way the Gen X plays because I bought it vented. I also bought a YaMalone from a former Atlanta Symphony Orchestra principal trumpet player who did the venting on that instrument himself. That horn played like a dream.
I'm not a scientist . . . just a band director. _________________ www.equinoxorchestra.com
www.brinsonics.com |
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Flip Oakes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Feb 2002 Posts: 532 Location: Oceanside, CA USA
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Bill Bryant wrote: | Flip, I don't doubt what you're saying, but I'm at a loss to understand, from an acoustics/physics perspective, what would cause this.
A tiny hole has been drilled in the piston so that it lines up with a third valve port when the valve is up. When the piston is depressed, the hole in the piston is lined up with the wall of the valve casing below the port and we would assume, in a good horn, is sealed pretty tight. As I visualize this to myself I can't picture how the vent hole would change the timbre of any note from any valve combination.
Again, I don't doubt a good player's actual experience; I just can't understand what's causing it.
I'd like to hear from Getzen/Edwards, Lawler, Monette, Kanstul or another horn maker about this. |
Hi Bill,
I’m in complete agreement with you, I can’t understand either, however it was the same with both horns, both mine and his...
All The Best,
Flip Oakes
Flip Oakes
“Wild Thing Trumpets”
COME AND HEAR THE DIFFERENCE
http://www.flipoakes.com
“To read what Wild Thing Owners say about their horns, click on this”
http://www.flipoakes.com/testimonials.htm
Flip Oakes
2559 Mottino Dr.
Oceanside, Ca. 92056-3421
760-643-1501
760-643-1511 Fax
To Hear the Flip Oakes Wild Thing Trumpet go to
http://www.flipoakes.com/multimedia.htm |
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tbrinson Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jan 2004 Posts: 186 Location: Augusta, GA
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:09 am Post subject: |
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Flip,
Is there any way you could make a recording comparing the two? I'd love to hear the difference.
I agree with the above posts in that I don't understand how it makes such a big difference, however, I guess its possible. _________________ www.equinoxorchestra.com
www.brinsonics.com |
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the chief Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jan 2003 Posts: 1438 Location: Wisconsin
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Flip, I wonder if just venting the #3 piston is what causes the odd sound with the Harmon mute. Have you noticed this with all 3 valves vented?
I played two Kanstul horns of the same model, one without and one with vented valves, side-by-side. The vented valves did a couple things to improve the trumpet. For one, the valves all moved a lot faster and lighter. Secondly, when slurring from note-to-note, the notes had a more crisp definition. It also opened up the blow of the horn a little. _________________ "Your mind is your kingdom; that's where you exist" |
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Bill Bryant Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 1570 Location: Rapid City, SD
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Bill Bryant wrote: | I'd like to hear from Getzen/Edwards, Lawler, Monette, Kanstul or another horn maker about this. |
What does it mean when a person starts quoting himself?
Seriously, I hope this thread stays near the top long enough for some designer/builders to respond to what Flip has described. |
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JazzBird Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2004 Posts: 251
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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I had the 3rd valve vented on all Bbs that I owned (cost was about $100 for the mod). In my opinion I think this should be a standard feature...since it really makes it easier to use the 3rd valve slide and I personally found I used it during a lot more to stay in tune during faster passages than I would without the vented slide. I have never understood while all makers don't have this as either a standard or at least optional feature when ordering (as along as you have a stop of course on the slide |
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dan_ostler Veteran Member
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 373 Location: Kemble Ontario Canada
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:41 am Post subject: |
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I tried out a horn like that, and the fact that the third valve slide would slide out to full extension just from the effects of gravity drove me nuts...you had to pull the slide in every time you picked up the horn _________________ Schilke B4L
WTF (in Blue)
LeBlanc Gozzo 770A, Al Hirt 707A
Olds Mendez, Clark Terry Flugel
Old Ambassador Cornet, Trumpet
Olds Mellophonium
(Is there a pattern emerging here??)
Hanns Hainlein 1632 Replica, MF Firebird
(I guess not......) |
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Angie811 Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2004 Posts: 289 Location: KY
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:56 am Post subject: |
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I Had that done on my Benge 3X - it didn't bother me that I had to keep pulling in my 3rd slide, but it did stop the popping sound (pressure). It's really only a good idea if you are playing orchestral excerpts. (there is one in particular that this really helps on - I can't remember which) _________________ My horn:
1971 Getzen Eterna Severinsen Model
w/custom bottom caps from
Pickett Brass
Jazz is life... |
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tpetplyr Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Jul 2002 Posts: 1669 Location: Boston
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:41 am Post subject: |
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Angie811 wrote: | I ... It's really only a good idea if you are playing orchestral excerpts. (there is one in particular that this really helps on - I can't remember which) |
Probably the Prelude from Bizet's Carmen Suite...Being able to get the third valve slide in and out for the low F. I was just thinking it would have been convinent on the Stevens Sonata too...I do it on C trumpet and have to refinger the whole first line to keep the third valve slide out.
Stuart _________________ "So long, and thanks for all the fish!" -- Dolphins |
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blasticore Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Aug 2002 Posts: 3045 Location: Orlando, FL
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Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Flip made the point I was going to. Your sound will change when the compression of your horn does. My horn actually has very poor compression. My valves are fine, but all my slides are loose and leaky at the contact points (my second valve slide is being held in with a rubber band). Honestly, I sound like I'm playing on a leaky horn, and rightfully so. Though, it's consistently leaky, since the slide that air will always pass through while you play (the tuning slide) also has the same issue. Having one valve vented (essentially, stripping it of any compression), any fingering combination involving that valve slide will be shaped differently.
I don't personally recommend valve venting, but if you can make it work, all the power to you. Some like it, and some don't. _________________ Chris King
http://www.cktrumpet.com
http://www.ckbrassworks.com |
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