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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:33 am Post subject: Chet Committee to Benge conversion |
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Thinking out loud. This is purely rhetorical so feel free to pass on by.
What adjustment in equipment (tuning slide, mouthpiece, etc.) would you make to a Benge 3X to strive for a Chet Baker-ish sound? Or would someone just wind up with a Frankenhorn that just can't do the trick?
I have a Committee which, for sure, is the true pathway. But I'm not sure I do enough playing anymore to justify having two trumpets, and I'm not a collector. And rankly, I've just never seen what the big deal about Committees is. This is my fourth.
I've had good luck with a MK/Drawing tuning slide on a Bach Commercial and one on a Yamaha Shew but somehow, I think this might be square pegging a round hole. Any thoughts? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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SilverSpunk Regular Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2022 Posts: 91
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Chet Committee to Benge conversion |
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kehaulani wrote: | Thinking out loud. This is purely rhetorical so feel free to pass on by.
What adjustment in equipment (tuning slide, mouthpiece, etc.) would you make to a Benge 3X to strive for a Chet Baker-ish sound? Or would someone just wind up with a Frankenhorn that just can't do the trick?
I have a Committee which, for sure, is the true pathway. But I'm not sure I do enough playing anymore to justify having two trumpets, and I'm not a collector. And rankly, I've just never seen what the big deal about Committees is. This is my fourth.
I've had good luck with a MK/Drawing tuning slide on a Bach Commercial and one on a Yamaha Shew but somehow, I think this might be square pegging a round hole. Any thoughts? |
-First thing that comes to mind is to get a Committee-like bell installed on your Benge. A lot of the Committee sound is due to the larger conical bell.
-The second thing might be the leadpipe of the Committee, this may also help.
-Third thing would be sound concept, just try to play like Chet and maybe you will sound close to him in your Benge, playing with the mouthpiece model he played can also help a teeny little, I think Chet played a Bach 6B size mouthpiece.
Last edited by SilverSpunk on Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1928 Location: WI
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:56 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani, you must have too much time on your hands to come up with such twisted ideas! (Just kidding )
Actually, everyone says Chet managed to "sound like Chet" no matter what horn he played (Committee, Conn 38B, student Buescher, Bach), so . . . maybe you can save yourself some money? Or maybe just buy yourself a Bach 6B or 6C mouthpiece (I guess maybe Chet tried a Bach 10 1/2C for a while, too).
All in fun, all in fun. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1928 Location: WI
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Chet Committee to Benge conversion |
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SilverSpunk wrote: |
-First thing that comes to mind is to get a Committee-like bell installed on your Benge. A lot of the Committee sound is due to the larger conical bell.
-The second thing might be the leadpipe of the Committee, this may also help. |
Then get yourself a Committee valve block and tuning slides, and you're all set! _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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SilverSpunk Regular Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2022 Posts: 91
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Chet Committee to Benge conversion |
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Halflip wrote: | SilverSpunk wrote: |
-First thing that comes to mind is to get a Committee-like bell installed on your Benge. A lot of the Committee sound is due to the larger conical bell.
-The second thing might be the leadpipe of the Committee, this may also help. |
Then get yourself a Committee valve block and tuning slides, and you're all set! |
Last step would be to try and surgically alter your lips and jaw structure to be like his. |
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plankowner110 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3620
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1928 Location: WI
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Chet Committee to Benge conversion |
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SilverSpunk wrote: | Last step would be to try and surgically alter your lips and jaw structure to be like his. |
In a pinch, you could have your teeth pulled and wear dentures . . . or learn to play without teeth. That way you'll get that singular 'airy' quality and attack that Chet had on some of his later European recordings. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Ronnman Veteran Member
Joined: 09 Aug 2019 Posts: 409 Location: SE Louisiana
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:21 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani - While I am not familiar with the Benge horn receivers/gaps, I do know that my Committee’s receive gap is HUGE. The receiver depth is 1.954” and my average gap of my 21 mouthpieces is 0.941”. My two Martin mouthpieces (7 & 10) have gaps of 1.052” and 0.954” respectively. I can achieve that Committee smokey/slippery sound on both the Martin mouthpieces. These Martin mouthpieces seem to match up well with my Committee horn.
Ron _________________ Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014 |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:34 am Post subject: |
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I wrote an article that began by describing the Martin Committee mystique. It was pretty polarizing, which was kind of the point of writing it. I remember my first exposure to a Committee. It was a medium bore version owned by our own Ed Mann. I was excoriated for writing that it didn't seem too different from my Benge 5X.
It was different, though. Just not as much as I thought it would be, in magnitude. It was in the subtleties, mostly. Those differences add up, though. I gave up trying to make it sound like a Martin and just made the Benge better at being a Benge.
Here are the things I tried. Some of them worked better than others.
1) Mouthpiece - At that time, I could try various Kanstul modular components for a week or two and return them, if I didn't want them. I tried the #3, #7 and #24 back bores. I thought the #7 was the best combination of rich tone, muted brilliance and "lyrical" slotting. Eventually, I bought a B3C Woody cup, because the wood was cool looking and was supposed to deaden a bit of that brilliance.
2) Valve clearances - Mine were really loose! It made the slotting ("Slotting!!?? We don't need no stinking slotting!) um..., sloppy. That was fine, until the valves got hopelessly sticky. Rebuilding them restored their action to a higher level than any piston instrument I've ever played, but tightened up said slotting to near Bach levels. Not bad, but not really Chet.
3) Bell - The #5 bell is the largest Benge bell. Nothing to do there, except find an old Martin or Holton 302 bell and hope for the best.
4) Slides - I hand picked a set of NOS large bore Benge slides and had them finished and plated by Kanstul. This probably did more to expand and darken the timbre of the horn than any other single thing. I tried to find a set of 4 slides that worked well together and gave the horn a homogenous timbre, but Flip Oakes felt that the horn no longer played evenly across its range.
5) Play a Wild Thing - All you old-timers have read the multitude of posts about my Wild Thing experiences. Can it do the Chet Thing? Probably, but not with me playing.
6) Play a 1603 or real 1956 Large Bore Martin Committee Deluxe - Yep, I tried them both for a few weeks. Together! These two trumpets were terrific. I got a clear view of why people value them so highly and, yes, there is a definite "Committee Sound." Alas, still no Chet.
Conclusion? "It's the Indian, not the arrow."
Jens Lindemann published a video some years back that featured Arturo Sandoval demonstrating how he could produce a huge variety of sound colors with just one trumpet and one mouthpiece. I figure that I might be able to somewhat emulate Chet Baker if I wanted to put in the work to discover how to do it, but for me it's not the sound that I love. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Whoa guys, you're making a quantum leap and I should've been more specific.
I would not replace any original equipment that cannot be immediately reversed. With a different tuning slide, I can just switch the old with the new and vice versa. Conversely, I cannot simply go back and forth with affixed bells or other affixed equipment.
My oversight, sorry! _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Chet Committee to Benge conversion |
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SilverSpunk wrote: | Last step would be to try and surgically alter your lips and jaw structure to be like his. |
Would it help to get one of my front teeth removed, too? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1928 Location: WI
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Chet Committee to Benge conversion |
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kehaulani wrote: | SilverSpunk wrote: | Last step would be to try and surgically alter your lips and jaw structure to be like his. |
Would it help to get one of my front teeth removed, too? |
Oh, so you are going for the 'pre-brutal assault on his teeth' Chet sound. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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Jon Arnold Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2002 Posts: 2026
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Chet played softly and way up in the microphone especially at the end of his career. He also sounded better on his last few recordings on the Bach Strad he was playing at the time. |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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The quintessential Chet sound was in large part done with the conn 38B, and the Bach, and the buescher. I think there are more recordings of those three than the committee. On the committee he sounded great of course, but the others…. _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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JonathanM Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2018 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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I really like what MK can do with their slides, but no MK slide is going to do enough to make either of my Benge's (3X and 4X, S# 14XXX) lean toward that Chet-like sound. Both of my Benge's lean towards a very nice clear, pure trumpet tone... But neither sound smoky or dark.
Mouthpiece options can surely help, but again, that breathy sound isn't close to what my Benge's lean toward. I like the Curry VC (Vintage Cornet) for a somewhat breathy, warm sound on my cornets, and I've got a GR cornet-to-trumpet adapter which I just plugged into my Benge 4X... No one's gonna mistake me for Chet with this setup. However, I've got a Andrea Giuffredi model by CarolBrass; with it's big bell and the Curry VC mouthpiece - it's much closer.
Great question though, and glad you're thinking out loud... It does us all good to conjecture from time to time. _________________ Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super |
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plankowner110 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 3620
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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Chet Committee to Benge conversion |
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kehaulani wrote: | Thinking out loud. This is purely rhetorical so feel free to pass on by.
What adjustment in equipment (tuning slide, mouthpiece, etc.) would you make to a Benge 3X to strive for a Chet Baker-ish sound? Or would someone just wind up with a Frankenhorn that just can't do the trick?.......
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Arturo Sandoval explains and demonstrates how to create the sound you are seeking in this interview with Jens Lindemann:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlJ6OiVLX9I
(Watch beginning at the 7:30 minute mark through the 11:00 mark.) _________________ C. G. Conn 60B Super Connstellation
Getzen 800S Eterna cornet
Bach 5C (Jens Lindemann is right)
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26763 |
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SilverSpunk Regular Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2022 Posts: 91
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Can anyone identify this horn? Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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SilverSpunk Regular Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2022 Posts: 91
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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Can anyone identify this horn? Thanks. |
I'm pretty sure he is playing a Buescher Aristocrat trumpet from the mid 1960s which was marketed to students I think.
Dillons Music has one for sale at the moment and as you can see the horn is identical (3rd slide bracing, the reciever, the top finger caps/button ect.)
https://www.dillonmusic.com/used-buescher-aristocrat-bb-trumpet-sn-511069/
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1928 Location: WI
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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 5:16 am Post subject: |
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SilverSpunk wrote: | kehaulani wrote: | Can anyone identify this horn? Thanks. |
I'm pretty sure he is playing a Buescher Aristocrat trumpet from the mid 1960s which was marketed to students I think. |
After watching the second video posted by SilverSpunk on YouTube (where I can expand it to full screen), I'm inclined to agree that the horn is a Buescher. Those finger buttons look very much like the ones on the Buescher 207 that I own (the models Buescher was making in the 60's carried over minor hardware like that).
That portrait of Chet is kind of unsettling to me -- there is optimism and innocence in those eyes (or maybe it's a frankness in the way he confronts the camera), yet also a haunted quality. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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