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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5680 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Scary Notes |
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It's been my anecdotal observation that slot "shelf" for that partial isn't as defined, and those two notes are naturally a bit out of tune. With those two things combined, I think what tends to happen is that the mind "hears" the pitch, your chops set to where they think the pitch is, but ultimately you'll hit right on the edge of the slot - sometimes you'll hit it, but sometimes it will break to the next slot.
That's totally anecdotal though - there's no science behind that, and I could be totally off the mark.
I think back to when I was younger and at my peak from a technique perspective. Back then I was VERY accurate. I think there were two reasons why:
1.) I played A LOT and therefore my chops were always in shape
2.) I did a lot of technical drills - lots and lots of lip slurs, lots of arpeggios, lots and lots of articulation, etc.
Ultimately I think I was just really dialed in to that horn, so mechanically I'd already fine-tuned the adjustments necessary to be accurate.
Someone also once commented about my trumpet when playing it, "Wow! This horn actually has an F" - meaning that the F on my trumpet centered better than the F on theirs. That may have been part of it too. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:24 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | @Rod - This may be a factor and other THers might more specifically know, but as one gets older, isn't it accompanied with a loss of hearing in the upper accoustics?
Of so, it means that there are some aspects you can't control. Maybe hearing aids can help compensate.
In the meantime, I don't see a short cut to just an increase in consistent ear-training and matching pitches by playing octaves first, adding others intervals later and playing something in the staff and then the same phrase an octave above with critical listening. Some Schlossber exercises could be used. |
As badly as I hate to admit to myself, yes I may need to get help with the aids. Wife often comments on this when competing sounds are occurring. I haven’t noticed too much as I can hear most common major minor and 7 chords up to the limits I’ve stated. I will find a good audiologist and explore this, funny what you will do for music even at the amature level🤷🏻♂️ I guess I’ve been somewhat vain and now that I’m past retirement I don’t feel the need to listen as closely as I once did. Thanks for the suggestion, it pushed me to a decision I should have made some time ago.
Has anyone had experiences with aids and listening clarity. I’ll spend what I need to if the product has good reviews. We may need to start a forum on trumpet players and hearing loss. I played with 2 other trumpets and 3 saxes the other nite with all guys 60 and over ( all wkend warriors) and good intonation wasn’t part of the party. Especially bad hearing if you started in 64 playing school big band then horn band then sitting in front of loud blues bands until now. Oh well I’ll try this.
Rod |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:27 am Post subject: |
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I can only offer little advice but it may be helpful. I just started to use a drone to train my ear for intonation. Also, I seem to hear my intervals better when I use ear protection, which enhances the sound in my head as opposed to the sound that comes form the outside to my ear (I hope that was clear …). _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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tonylemons wrote: | Creating as many tethers to the note you see on the page is key, I think. Singing in the head/physically feeling/subdiving before so your body is coordinated.. everything comes together during performance to get you closer to success.
Shuebruk Lip Trainers has helped me in practice. Grade 2, intervals, and the basic attack exercises. Use different metronome markings, imagine them as entrances in pieces, etc. Use them as a template, and mentally get off of the page to apply them to whichever situations are troubling you! |
You see very few of the notes I’m talking about written - highest I ever saw was a hi g, most are written optional 8va.
Rod |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: Scary Notes |
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BarryWilson wrote: | Gentlemen (and any ladies out there). Any time I have to hit a 4th space E or a 5th line F cold I get scared because I tend to crack or entirely miss them. Now, if they are part of a line with other notes before, not a problem. I can nail the G above the staff easily and the 4th space Eb is not a problem. This has been going on for a couple of years. Does anyone have any insights as to why those two pitches are hard to nail? I'll be 66 in November. Am I just losing my touch? |
While being careful not to overtrain?
Develop more volume and endurance in this area. Go watch a real professional play a gig and observe how much more volume that he has.
Now instead of merely practicing attacks on such touchy notes (which is a good idea too) start playing ballads and songs that emphasize these tones. And if you can't find many?
Transpose other tunes so that they emphasize those tones you find tricky. Although I haven't seen the book in print for a while? The Berklee Press once published a jazz duet book for lead trumpet. "Bob Martin" was the author. The duet I liked the most was the one that emphasized the first ledger line above the treble clef staff A flat. OMG did that exercise really work ya.
And the A flat (or G# certainly is a nasty one to always hit perfectly). Well if I were you, I'd TRANSPOSE that duet down a minor third and then wear out my F natural. Practice till I was sick of practicing. And then practice some more. Always within the boundary of AVOIDING overtraining.
Lastly?
Instead of spending my nights practicing? I'd find at least three bands to play in each week. As when given the choice between a practice session and a live practice or performance? It is always the live performance that helps one grow the fastest.
Granted that certain things can only be worked out in practice. However in general you'll grow in musicianship much faster if you spend the bulk of your playing hours in an ensemble. The thing that makes practicing easier is to develop a passion for the instrument. Do that? And the rest is just painting by numbers. Or like "filling in the blanks". Really! _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Scariest note = G in the staff... When playing the first note of "Taps" after standing in the weather for an hour-plus with friends, family, clergy, and military all listening for it. _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5680 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:39 am Post subject: |
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Don Herman rev2 wrote: | Scariest note = G in the staff... When playing the first note of "Taps" after standing in the weather for an hour-plus with friends, family, clergy, and military all listening for it. |
I can't recall that I have ever chipped that G. On the occasions where I have had a scuffed note, it's always coming down from the upper G toward the end of the call, and almost always on the E. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 8:33 am Post subject: |
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Don Herman rev2 wrote: | Scariest note = G in the staff... When playing the first note of "Taps" after standing in the weather for an hour-plus with friends, family, clergy, and military all listening for it. |
Never muffed taps in too many playings but had a time hitting hi c at times- hit next lowest partial till I got so the d was easier.
There was definitely stress in a full honors service when you are a 14 yr old civilian.
Rod |
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Andy Cooper Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2001 Posts: 1830 Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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A few tests you can do:
1. Play first line E. Stop and take the mouthpiece from your lips. Rest for at least 4 counts and try to play the E an octave higher.
2. Play the interval from 2nd line G to the E above with a light tongue.
Repeat using 1&2 for the 4th space E. Try this both softly and forte.
If you can reliably get the E, then just practice.
If you cannot get the E this way, it's probably not a problem hearing the note in your head before playing.
I have a problem with the G to E interval with some horn/mouthpiece/backbore combinations. I suspect it may relate to mouthpiece gap but I have also resolved the problem with small amounts of added weight.
(It's easy to try increasing your mouthpiece gap with a slip of paper. You can experiment with weight with a couple of pennies, some painters tape and 2 or 3 inches of non-lead solder wire.) |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:48 am Post subject: |
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trickg wrote: | Don Herman rev2 wrote: | Scariest note = G in the staff... When playing the first note of "Taps" after standing in the weather for an hour-plus with friends, family, clergy, and military all listening for it. |
I can't recall that I have ever chipped that G. On the occasions where I have had a scuffed note, it's always coming down from the upper G toward the end of the call, and almost always on the E. |
Didn't say I missed it, though I have, just that it was scary -- lots of mental pressure. Especially graveside in freezing weather at the end of a service.
Where I missed it was nice and warm indoors, at the end of a Cub Scout ceremony running late when I (also Cubmaster at the time) had to run to the back after making the closing announcements, grab my horn, and play. Brain fart, had the wrong pitch in mind (G concert like my bugle instead of F concert on my Bb trumpet), blah. _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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The O/P has presented a very good question. Like on the other hand, take an instrument like the clarinet, flute or even an E flat alto sax. None of these players have ever been afraid of such a note. Why is this so? Like,
"Why is it that trumpet players and only they have difficulty playing and developing their range?
So people have suggested more practice. And in some cases I'm gonna be right behind them. However if this trumpet player is using a loose, flabby embouchure? He may only reinforce his weakness rather than defeat it.
Also too, the notes he fears aren't very high at all. My thoughts,
If you can get a copy of the "Stevens- Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique". You then ought to read up on the PHYSICAL LAWS that govern trumpet playing. This is a system that tells the reader to utilize a highly "rolled-in" chop setting. As such this condition adds great "leverage" to the chops. Making a mere F/staff nothing at all. Just blow, but get your chops set right at the beginning. And teachers too ought learn of the physics governing range & sound production _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9028 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:10 am Post subject: |
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The Stevens-Costello Method is your panacea. Get it.
p.s. funny how many outstanding lead players don't use a rolled-in embouchure.
Ref easier notes on sax, are you kidding? Totally different acoustic system. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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