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budstahl Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2019 Posts: 123 Location: Jönköping
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Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:57 am Post subject: Corporation bell |
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Hi !
I have a Bach Stradivarius lightweight 72 trumpet from 1977 and it says corporation on the bell , what does that mean ? |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Corporation bell |
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budstahl wrote: | Hi !
I have a Bach Stradivarius lightweight 72 trumpet from 1977 and it says corporation on the bell , what does that mean ? |
Really not much. Bach placed the word corporation under the signature line on the bell crest until after the second Elkhart move to Industrial drive. Then, they stopped. It means typically that the horn predates those built after the "early Elkhart" period - except that yours of course is after that period by a couple years. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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kramergfy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 992 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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The only thing “Corporation” stamped bell will reliably indicate is a steel wire in the bell rim. A pre 68xxx Elkhart made serial would also indicate a side-seam bell. I believe after “Corporation” was taken off, the bell beads went back to brass. Just a speculation though. _________________ "I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy
Thread killer. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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kramergfy wrote: | The only thing “Corporation” stamped bell will reliably indicate is a steel wire in the bell rim. A pre 68xxx Elkhart made serial would also indicate a side-seam bell. I believe after “Corporation” was taken off, the bell beads went back to brass. Just a speculation though. |
I have wondered if it was concurrent, or was hinted to me by someone there at the time, shortly after - but basically I think that's it. However there are also Mt. Vernon bells (and all NY) marked corporation, which had brass wires. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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budstahl Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2019 Posts: 123 Location: Jönköping
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:59 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | kramergfy wrote: | The only thing “Corporation” stamped bell will reliably indicate is a steel wire in the bell rim. A pre 68xxx Elkhart made serial would also indicate a side-seam bell. I believe after “Corporation” was taken off, the bell beads went back to brass. Just a speculation though. |
I have wondered if it was concurrent, or was hinted to me by someone there at the time, shortly after - but basically I think that's it. However there are also Mt. Vernon bells (and all NY) marked corporation, which had brass wires. |
So is there any difference in sound or something between steel and brass wire ? |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3636 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Very easy to see if it's steel - use a magnet. _________________ "Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:45 am Post subject: |
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budstahl wrote: | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | kramergfy wrote: | The only thing “Corporation” stamped bell will reliably indicate is a steel wire in the bell rim. A pre 68xxx Elkhart made serial would also indicate a side-seam bell. I believe after “Corporation” was taken off, the bell beads went back to brass. Just a speculation though. |
I have wondered if it was concurrent, or was hinted to me by someone there at the time, shortly after - but basically I think that's it. However there are also Mt. Vernon bells (and all NY) marked corporation, which had brass wires. |
So is there any difference in sound or something between steel and brass wire ? |
The density is different, which changes the inertia of the rim, influencing the final formation of the wave=front leaving the horn. So yes. The degree to which it is noticeable is debated, but the effect is real, and popular enough among early Elkhart Bach fans, that the 190 series now uses a steel rim wire in addition to 2-piece casings to replicate the mass balance of that period. (Brass rim wires were what Bach himself used when he ran the company, which is why Selmer went back to using them on the 180s.) _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | The density is different, which changes the inertia of the rim, influencing the final formation of the wave=front leaving the horn. So yes. The degree to which it is noticeable is debated, but the effect is real, and popular enough among early Elkhart Bach fans, that the 190 series now uses a steel rim wire in addition to 2-piece casings to replicate the mass balance of that period. (Brass rim wires were what Bach himself used when he ran the company, which is why Selmer went back to using them on the 180s.) |
When did Selmer come out with the 180 model? I ask because my Bb was built in 1979-80 and has a 37 bell with a steel wire. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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Tpt_Guy wrote: | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | The density is different, which changes the inertia of the rim, influencing the final formation of the wave=front leaving the horn. So yes. The degree to which it is noticeable is debated, but the effect is real, and popular enough among early Elkhart Bach fans, that the 190 series now uses a steel rim wire in addition to 2-piece casings to replicate the mass balance of that period. (Brass rim wires were what Bach himself used when he ran the company, which is why Selmer went back to using them on the 180s.) |
When did Selmer come out with the 180 model? I ask because my Bb was built in 1979-80 and has a 37 bell with a steel wire. |
79/80? Interesting - I guess the "back to the way Bach did it" initiative came a little later than I thought. I know Tedd Waggoner was a big part of that refocus, but I have not seen him comment here on TH in a long time.
The 180 was designed by Vincent Bach as a consulting engineer for Selmer in 1963. The several increases in wrap height from Bach's original design over the years, combined with Bach's insistence on retaining the same initial bend radius at the top of the tuning slide had led to a flat front on the slide by classic mid-Mt. Vernon design. Bach had played Holtons, and knew the effect on slotting/centering (very tight) that geometry with a long taper leadpipe created. He apparently preferred a looser feel like a Besson, and so he exploited a quirk of the physics that a longer wall disruption ahead of that bend would mitigate that tighter centering - and designed the mid Mt.Vernon horns to be in tune with the slide out an inch. Selmer did not like that the horn looked different than everyone else's, and asked for a normal pull. Bach knew, and probably lamented, that the horn built like that would center really tight (what everyone now thinks of as normal for "a Bach" despite that the man whose name they link it to didn't want it that way), but as an employee of Selmer, did what was asked to the best he could: creating the 180.
180s were first built at Mt. Vernon December 1963-December 1964, then moved to the Main Street plant in Elkhart, with changes to the bell including the thickness of brass used, and the rim wire happening concurrent with the move. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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