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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:00 am Post subject: Flat or curved fingers? |
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I have been increasingly aware of just how many players actually don't “Strike the valves hard, lift the fingers high". I see a lot of relatively flat-fingered playing.
Does anyone have any insight into which is more efficient and why, holding the hand as you are holding a tennis ball then pressing the fingers straight down, or using more flat fingers and using them more as levers?
Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
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cbtj51 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2015 Posts: 725 Location: SE US
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:29 am Post subject: |
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Great question! For me as a young 1960s Drum and Bugle Corps Soprano screamer and because of the configuration of the G Bugle of the period, I was a right hand dominant player and that translated to flat finger playing on trumpet; more pressure on lip because of the stranglehold and "octave key" involvement. That remained my habit until I stopped playing altogether in 2000. Now 7 years as a comeback, I am very much a left hand gripper (light), I have released the "octave key" resulting in a very light right hand grip involvement, hence more finger agility and control, MUCH less lip pressure, more relaxed approach to playing. If I could talk to the younger me...
Mike _________________ '71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3776 Location: AL
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:35 am Post subject: |
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In my students there is a tendency to lift the finger tips from the finger button, straight up in the air, when it's not being pushed down and then bring the fingers down flat. It's a tough habit to correct. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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tptptp Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 1409 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:18 am Post subject: |
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For me, finger arthritis has caused the "tennis ball" form to be much slower than the "lever" technique.
I can't see how it could matter how it's done, as long as the player can play the notes. I'm interested in the views of you academic guys. _________________ Craig Mitchell |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2333 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Drop your hand to your side, shaking it out, let your fingers hang naturally.. then bed at the elbow without changing your hand position -> that's what I look for.. a "naturally" relaxed backwards "C" with the fingertips then resting on the mother-of-pearl, the tip of the thumb rests under the leadpipe touching the valve casing between the 1st & 2nd valves (not bending/flexing/or moving off to the side). The knuckle of the right hand (big knuckle - metacarpophalangeal) equal to the height of the mid-point of the valve stroke-optimizing the lever action at the knuckle (no other or excess movement needed) "...the trumpet is hard enough, lets not make it harder with sloppy technique..." and over time can help us stay away from repetative movement injuries. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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mike ansberry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:58 am Post subject: |
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tptptp wrote: | For me, finger arthritis has caused the "tennis ball" form to be much slower than the "lever" technique.
I can't see how it could matter how it's done, as long as the player can play the notes. I'm interested in the views of you academic guys. |
I am finding this to be true. I am faster with flat fingers now and if I try the "tennis ball" curved fingers my finger tips slide around to the finger buttons. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Al Hirt played flat-fingered. If you watch enough Doc video you'll see him play curved and flat-fingered. Maynard also shifted around. Maurice Andre played flat-fingered. I'm sure you can find examples of various great players doing it different ways. Didn't your boy Bix have his own unique way of addressing the valves?
My conclusion is do whatever you find works best for you. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
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nltrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2019 Posts: 206 Location: Washington DC
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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All good answers and insight here so far. I don’t know if this is a universally-accepted technique, but some horn players will slide their fingers further down the paddles (rotary valves) and play flat fingered and further up their fingers. Some believe this helps with smoothness when moving to different fingerings in slow melodies. A few trumpet players have adopted this approach, but I don’t think it works for me. |
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Jeff_Purtle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 936 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | Didn't your boy Bix have his own unique way of addressing the valves? | He did. But that was fingering combinations, not fingering positions. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of great players use flat fingers, but I prefer the round relaxed right hand technique with fingertips only on the valve caps. My favorite players play this way and so do I. It also aligns with correct guitar, piano, and woodwind technique for multi-instrumentalists, which we should all be to some extent. |
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JensenW Regular Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2012 Posts: 67 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff_Purtle wrote: | Here’s an article I wrote several years ago with pictures to explain what Claude Gordon taught and why. It matters especially when you are working for more speed and all the breath control accomplishments in Clarke’s Technical Studies.
https://www.purtle.com/jeff-correct-hand-position
Jeff |
Thank you, Jeff. The point about the right thumb on the first valve casing and not between the first and second valve casings was in interesting detail. _________________ Wade
Yamaha YTR 737
The goal is to be a better trumpeter today than I was yesterday. |
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Bill_Bumps Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2019 Posts: 157
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | Al Hirt played flat-fingered. If you watch enough Doc video you'll see him play curved and flat-fingered. Maynard also shifted around. Maurice Andre played flat-fingered. I'm sure you can find examples of various great players doing it different ways. Didn't your boy Bix have his own unique way of addressing the valves?
My conclusion is do whatever you find works best for you. |
I couldn't agree more. My fingers are relatively short, not at all like the long, flexible digits I see on most musicians. Using curved fingers is extremely awkward for me, which is why I've always played "flat-handed." |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | Drop your hand to your side, shaking it out, let your fingers hang naturally.. then bed at the elbow without changing your hand position -> that's what I look for.. a "naturally" relaxed backwards "C" with the fingertips then resting on the mother-of-pearl, the tip of the thumb rests under the leadpipe touching the valve casing between the 1st & 2nd valves (not bending/flexing/or moving off to the side). The knuckle of the right hand (big knuckle - metacarpophalangeal) equal to the height of the mid-point of the valve stroke-optimizing the lever action at the knuckle (no other or excess movement needed) "...the trumpet is hard enough, lets not make it harder with sloppy technique..." and over time can help us stay away from repetative movement injuries. |
This is exactly how I teach it. Let the body teach the player what the minimally-tense state is rather than forcing them into a misconception of what "proper" is. A lot of the beginner books show hands positions that look quite tense to me. For a lot of players (most?), the tension-free position is flatter than what the beginner books say. I've spent more time correcting death-claw fingers than lazy, flat fingers.
If you watch great pianists with uninhibited technique, the universal is lack of unneeded tension in their hands. There's some variance in the amount of curve in the fingers. The moment a player tries to impose a hand position shape, they run the risk of introducing tension. It doesn't take that much physical effort to wiggle your fingers, but they do need to be free to move.
And honestly, there's a time and place for letting the leadpipe rest in the crook of the thumb, putting the pinky in the pinky ring, playing with lazy-looking fingers, and holding the horn with the right hand. Sometimes the freedom to adjust the first and third slides without disturbing the horn is more important than blazing-fast fingers.
Flexibility based on musical needs is more important than looking good in band method books. |
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Notlem Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2021 Posts: 127
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Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm… any correlation between on the pinky hook and in the pinky hook. I always play on it, fingers curved. However, when I have to be in it, they are flatter…
I would have to rewatch a bunch of videos, but if my memory recalls, most with flat fingers are in the pinky hook.
Then again, my memory has had better days, could just a video or two I remember with seeing players with fingers flat out… who knows.
-marc |
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