Finding your sweet spot

[jicetp]

Hi everyone

Lately, I have been researching where my sweet spot could be.

I have been noticing in recent gigs ( Big Band ) that I had to remind myself not to manipulate my posture ( to play over the stand and stand right - and look good - ). Like a second breath, when I return to my ' normal ' set-up, chops were back !! Not a unimportant thing.

So I am in the process of analyzing/finding what my ideal placement/angle/you name it should be.

I began with understanding what different approaches could have in common or what I have missed from these approaches.

Several things ' came together ' so to speak while trying to figure out how to set up my embouchure ( motto is = consistent set up = consistent results - or so I hope - )

Playing with the horn held only with to fingers ( Piero Michi 30mn protocol ), experimenting with the Stratos taught me that my optimum embouchure wasnt the one currently used.

So I tried the basic experiment with lips only to find where the buzz ( I dont care at this stage if lips/trumpet playing are the same buzzing thing ) happens with the least effort.
To my surprise, the buzz is located more on the left than 'thought '. I practice this buzz at ppp level to not force it to happen.

I then incorporate the ppp G trumpet playing trying to set the mouthpiece accordingly with the lip buzz ( mor eon the left than usual and a bit lower ). When correctly (?) done, effortless G/Cs whispers come out of the horn. Note : teeth closed to get the maximum from the minimum input

After some time on these, I do my regular routine, trying to so lightly incorporate some of my 'findings' ( sometimes buzz to remind where it happens ) but also accepting to 'shoft' the mouthpiece a bit not where it usually sits.

Obviously, things are changing because sound, flexibility are different ( not to say better )

For those of you who have read so far, a quick resume of the things I do and were the ideas come from :


- flapping ( Shew )
- 'tiny' buzz ( still experimenting with the pitch - from low G to middle G - ) followed by bringing the horn.Inspired by the Walk In by Reinhardt ( but not the same ).
- Trying to find thes weet spot where whisper tones happen efforlessly and with pure sound ( sometimes 2mn sometimes .......20-30mn ). Obviously inspired by Cat Anderson ( and Tobias Weidinger )

Voila, there it is

Any input welcome. Hope this leads to a healthy conversation

All the best

JiCe

[Wilktone]

Everyone has a mouthpiece placement that is most efficient and they are not going to be in the same place as anyone else. It sounds like your experimentation is getting you at least moving in the right direction and maybe found where yours is.

The one thing I would recommend is to focus your efforts on what happens when you're playing the horn, without any devices attached. Free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing aren't necessarily going to directly relate to what works best on the instrument. The Stratos seems like it would encourage a particular horn angle/jaw position that might also not be how you play best, so I would take it off and allow your horn angles and placement to evolve according to how it sounds without it.

Dave
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[Billy B]

[Wilktone]

Maybe, Bill, but I still feel that those things are best tested actually playing the instrument. I don't see how blowing air into the mouthpiece will tell you which mouthpiece placement or jaw position is going to be most efficient for the individual player any more than buzzing on the mouthpiece will. Probably even less, I think.
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[Billy B]

[Wilktone]

Thanks, Bill. Can you please explain your thoughts on how and why that would work so I can better understand?
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[Billy B]

[Wilktone]

Thanks again, Bill. I honestly would like to understand the mechanism that you feel is helping. There must be a reason why blowing air into the mouthpiece would help a student find their sweet spot and horn angle better than testing it out while actually playing the instrument.

[JayKosta]

This youtube video might be an example of the 'blow through the mouthpiece' method -
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y0uuFa59brVvSCcdo49YT6OeDOSeEq_q/view?ts=5b8c094d
it happens in the first few minutes.

Watch and listen carefully to how the embouchure is demonstrated and the verbal instructions. There is a lot more happening than just telling the student to 'blow through the mouthpiece'. If a student is able to see , hear, recognize, and duplicate how to 'blow through the mouthpiece', that will yield good results.
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[ghelbig]

[Wilktone]

Bill's pedagogy class is interesting, although he doesn't address in it why he feels that blowing air into the mouthpiece will positively affect a student's mouthpiece placement. I still can't imagine a reason why it would be better to find the "sweet spot" on the lips by blowing air into the mouthpiece rather than checking it on the instrument. We can set the mouthpiece all over the lips and slot the horn into the shank and get a tone, but one of those spots will work better than the others and I think the sound on the horn is what is most important to check for.

Now for getting a student's lips into a buzzing formation you can make the argument that the way Bill teaches it in this video demonstration will be effective, although I prefer to describe it differently.

I like (and use myself) many of the pedagogical techniques Bill demonstrates. He models frequently and gets the student to focus on more external areas, rather than thinking about what the body is doing. Examples of this include using the ball to squeeze between the knees and the bucket of water demonstration to get the student visualizing the bubbles blowing out of the bell (rather than focusing on how the breathing is going). He has a patient demeanor and injects humor into his lesson. He advocates "sound before sight" for beginners.

Phil Snedecor's video has more similarities into how I approach finding the correct horn angles for a particular student, but I prefer to skip the mouthpiece part of it and do something similar on the instrument. Again, my feeling is that buzzing or blowing air into the mouthpiece doesn't inherently lead a player towards the most efficient mouthpiece placement and what sounds "good" while buzzing the mouthpiece isn't necessarily what works to sound good on the instrument.

I also like to check how the horn angles might change for the musician in different registers. Our teeth and gums aren't a flat plane and everyone does some pushing/pulling of the lips with the mouthpiece along the teeth and gums, generally up and down but often some side to side as well. As a brass musician makes this embouchure motion the foundation of the teeth and gums underneath the mouthpiece rim and lips will change and the horn angle should change to accommodate. Again, I prefer to test this on the instrument, which I feel will make the most accurate and relevant check.

My two cents, for what it's worth.

Dave
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[jicetp]

Very intesting points you all make.

There are two opposite schools of thought in my opinion :

- the imagine what you want to sound like and blow

- the physical approach


I happen to play with two monster players each one with one or the other approach.

The first one :

great classical player. never had a thought on embouchure or whatever . doesnt even matter to him what mouthpiece he plays on . he carries a 1 1/2 C but sometimes when he forget/loose it, he takes the unbranded 7C that is still in his case.
doesnt know about tongue arch, roll in/out..you name it.
can play with full orchestral sound up to high Eb ( concert ) the whole day long. above that nothing ( and doesnt care )
doesnt need to warm up. pick the horn cold, blow some middle C, chromatics down to low f # and lets go.
I hate him

Second one :

not so great on classical. his tone is less orchestral. but his range goes up to triple C with a usuable Double D in Big Band setting ( two sets only - third one must be lower High A or something )
this one player has a theory about everything ( not just trumpet )
breath/abs/teeth/pivot/tongue....
carries a whole bunch of mouthpieces depending on his feelings/acoustics....
he tried once to teach me but I got sick of having a checklist comparable of a pilot before take off before playing one note ( analysis paralysis )
he is a technical wizard ( can double tongue 2 octaves scales for example )
I hate him

I think each and everyone of us lies somewhere between those 2 approaches.

And there are caveat for each one I think :

- the natural player :
the lucky guy that got his set up right off the first time he put a moutphiece on his chops. That allows some time to play music right ?
But how many failed ?
I have dozen of musician friends who now play trombone or tuba because of failing at playing the trumpet, even after seeing some great name teachers .

- the analytical player :
tries to control every aspect of his game, but what if he has the wrong information ?
I think I tried every methodology that I could have access to : my shelves are full filled with trumpet books .
I overdid most of them ( thinking the more the better ) because I hadnt any guidance
Easy to fall into a trap that way.
For example I used to think that a Roll In embouchure would save my playing. So I did try and play with a Rolled In embouchure for what - 3 months straight - before quitting ( and try something else )


How many teachers know how to play ?

I had my share of the ones that just say : listen to me and repeat. I had my share of the ones devoted to one technique only ( worst one was the teacher that insisted we wear a belt and push against it while playing - à la Operatic I dont remember what school - ). Some guys got hernias with this way of playing.

These teachers I talk are great teachers. Reknowned ones with a career of teaching and playing.


So , what I suggest we can provide all together with this forum, where no one as to gain to bash the others, is a basic understanding of how the trumpet works, apply this knowledge to the students ( which we all are I guess ), and when the mechanics work accordingly to the nature, lets make some music !

Posture, point of vibration, set up, size of mouthpiece, blowing apparatus : these are the fundamentals we shall seek and develop.
Production, connection, articulation : thats how I envision the ' technical' aspects of playing.

Sorry, very too long post , night was short and my mind is still in the mountains I was skying yesterday

All the best

JiCe

[Felix c]

My friends;
Jice post is one the best explanation for the 2 approaches I have hear on my 52YO life. I'm suffering for this from the past 11-12 years. My approach is more Physical, None of my previous teachers can present me a convincing explanation and demonstration of my plateau in the Trumpet. Then in 2010 I decide take class with a Great Classical Player and one of his students. Their approach is blow and blow, Song and wind method. There's is a Moment after 3 class where I can not vibrate or make any sound in the trumpet. All old technique was fall to floor and newer no works. So a lot of mouthpieces, some horns were buy and sale, long hours of not best guided practice with doubts and a lot of money invested and trusting in the teacher completely. I need good guidance. It was very frustrating. This teacher tell about don't think about the tongue, aperture just blow with open throat, with tone and sound production at first place, then with time all things will improve. Only the sound improve, other factors never grow. My approach is physical, with equipment ,tongue and other techniques of forte volume consideration. My job at the orchestra was commercial, with huge volume,
with uncomfortable register for me at second trumpet. With this Classical approach I feel my performing was late in all, out of style. In 2018 I lost my Job in the orchestra. Right know I'm paralyzed by the analysis of all. My sound is fine but, endurance, register and playing flow is limited. My yesterday last night practice was Clarke #1 up to A over staff with a lot of effort but with a great commercial sound. (Register from A (over staff) to High C is always my difficult.) I have try an internalize in every one hour session to playing out of the red part of lips, with tongue arch ,changing trumpet angle making minimal mouthpiece pressure and good air. Its hard to find a commercial teacher-player that evaluate me and present his advise to improve. The only player founded is a terrific Trumpet player that live like 150 miles abroad, have an odd embouchure and his advise is to practice 4-5 hours daily strongly. He's a Monster, one of Top 10 Puerto Rico Trumpeters and a friend who lives very far from me. I have quit 2 times since 2016, but I'm my heart is the feeling to never give up. Maybe some day I will improve and demonstrate to myself I can do the job instead no opportunity and feel satisfied. With that I can hang the trumpet with peace. Here there's no community bands or local orchestras that can be a good laboratory to test how well or bad I'm. I like personal class, Virtual or Zoom meetings are a problem with cameras and sound delay.
With Covid all is fall to floor.
To end; 2 Schools Approaches, which the Best or appropriate for every player?
Thanks for all
Felix
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[JayKosta]

[Wilktone]