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jairo_saade Regular Member
Joined: 18 Jun 2020 Posts: 55 Location: Panamá
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:52 am Post subject: Machine an old bach mouthpiece to make a top for AR backbore |
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Hi all,
Talking about custom mouthpieces, I saw a video of Bob Reeves Mouthpieces where they mention they can convert any mouth piece to two piece, saving either the top or the backbore and making it compatible with a top/backbore of their making.
I find the idea cool, specially since I have my old college Bach 10 1/2 EW sitting around with a beaten backbore, but would like to make it in a more open fashion such as my AR 40.
Do you folks know if it is possible to machine a bach mouthpiece to remove the current backbore, salvage the top and make the top compatible with AR backbore? would the size of the top be compatible with the medium AR backbore?
thanks for the input. _________________ Joe S |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Of course, though it would be a good idea to send the AR backbore along so the Bach top can be properly matched to it. It is not likely the throats match.
As to whether or not the size of the top is compatible with the backbore (I'm assuming you are referring to cup diameter, depth, and shape), that is something you'll have to test yourself. What works for one player may not work for another. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2053 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Make sure you are not spending more than on a new mouthpiece that would also suit you. I meant to modify two Klier mouthpieces with a plastic screw rim. Would’ve cost me more than the new mp, so I just ordered a matching trumpet/flugel pair with the screw rims I wanted. ETA in about two weeks. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:51 am Post subject: |
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Understand that there are two general ways of creating a two-piece mouthpiece. Reeves separates the rim from the entire underpart (which includes both the cup and the backbore). I think this is also true for Bach though the threads are different. Done this way there are lsignificant imitations on which rims can be fit to the underpart since any misfit can be really irritating to the lips.
The other more common way is to separate the backbore from the entire top (rim and cup). A number of makers do it this way. As I understand it these parts are usually interchangeable. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Aspeyrer Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2019 Posts: 106
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:57 am Post subject: |
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What your asking to do is quite common! Fortunately, there are several makers that can accommodate your request, almost surely AR can. What it seems you want is often referred to as the mouthpiece “top” section. Once you get that section separate and threaded, you can experiment with all sorts of backbores. Yes, throat matching is important, but will not render the bb useless if not matched with the top.
I’ve had good luck with Frost custom brass. But, he is certainly not the only one capable of helping you |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Aspeyrer wrote: | What your asking to do is quite common! Fortunately, there are several makers that can accommodate your request, almost surely AR can. What it seems you want is often referred to as the mouthpiece “top” section. Once you get that section separate and threaded, you can experiment with all sorts of backbores. Yes, throat matching is important, but will not render the bb useless if not matched with the top.
I’ve had good luck with Frost custom brass. But, he is certainly not the only one capable of helping you |
From the AR Resonance website:
"While we can customize anything, we have found that almost all of our clients have had extreme success playing either our 40 or 42 throats.
"They stand for 4.00 and 4.20 millimiters, roughly #21 and #19 in american sizes."
The stock Bach throat is 27. A jump from a 27 to19 or even a 21 is a huge jump and will likely have undesirable effects on the results.
A jump from a 27 to, say, a 25 or 24 might not be so bad and allow for decent testing, but this is a jump of 6 or 8 throat sizes. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 520 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Tpt_Guy wrote: | Aspeyrer wrote: | What your asking to do is quite common! Fortunately, there are several makers that can accommodate your request, almost surely AR can. What it seems you want is often referred to as the mouthpiece “top” section. Once you get that section separate and threaded, you can experiment with all sorts of backbores. Yes, throat matching is important, but will not render the bb useless if not matched with the top.
I’ve had good luck with Frost custom brass. But, he is certainly not the only one capable of helping you |
From the AR Resonance website:
"While we can customize anything, we have found that almost all of our clients have had extreme success playing either our 40 or 42 throats.
"They stand for 4.00 and 4.20 millimiters, roughly #21 and #19 in american sizes."
The stock Bach throat is 27. A jump from a 27 to19 or even a 21 is a huge jump and will likely have undesirable effects on the results.
A jump from a 27 to, say, a 25 or 24 might not be so bad and allow for decent testing, but this is a jump of 6 or 8 throat sizes. |
This is very true.
That being said, I actually use a wedge with an AR backbore, and the jump is from a 25 throat on my top to the 40 backbore on the AR, and it's the best mouthpiece setup I've ever played.
I did chop up a Bach NY 7 mouthpiece and thread it to take the AR backbore and that didn't work out at all, even after drilling out the throat to match. _________________ www.divitt-trumpets.com
www.facebook.com/divitt.trumpets
www.instagram.com/divitttrumpets |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Divitt Trumpets wrote: | This is very true.
That being said, I actually use a wedge with an AR backbore, and the jump is from a 25 throat on my top to the 40 backbore on the AR, and it's the best mouthpiece setup I've ever played.
I did chop up a Bach NY 7 mouthpiece and thread it to take the AR backbore and that didn't work out at all, even after drilling out the throat to match. |
I have a friend who is able to play mismatched tops and backbores within certain limits. My own experience is mixed. For example, I for a while I played a Kanstul top with a 27 throat paired with a backbore with a 24 throat. Low E was squirrely and quite sharp. A local store matched them and that E locked right in and the rest of the horn smoothed out just a bit. Another piece I played for a while was a Laskey top with a 26 paired with a backbore with a 24 drill, and it seemed to play just fine. Mixed.
I tend to be of the opinion that pieces should match were possible, as steps can cause troubles. But then there was this guy named Zottola...and this other guy named Pilczuk...
Anyway, what is the difference in cup design between the Wedge and the NY 7?
In my own playing, I've observed that (at least for me) certain cup shapes seem better fit to certain backbores. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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On my flugelhorn I use an AR 40 top with an AR 42 backbore. I originally intended to use a different cup, but I had only the 42 backbore so I figured I'd just try it and see if it worked. It works rather well, even though the difference in size is much, much smaller that what you're talking about. I know there's a potential for issues with intonation and resistance and all, but I don't notice that on my flugel.
I also tried the other way around (42 top with 42 backbore) and that didn't work for me at all. |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:58 am Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | Understand that there are two general ways of creating a two-piece mouthpiece. Reeves separates the rim from the entire underpart (which includes both the cup and the backbore). I think this is also true for Bach though the threads are different. Done this way there are lsignificant imitations on which rims can be fit to the underpart since any misfit can be really irritating to the lips.
The other more common way is to separate the backbore from the entire top (rim and cup). A number of makers do it this way. As I understand it these parts are usually interchangeable. |
I just bought a Hammond fluffy mouthpiece, and it's a rim that screws onto a cup/backbore underpart. I was wondering if they're compatible with any of the other systems. Curious if there's a chart that lists screw systems and how they're typically done... |
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Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 520 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Tpt_Guy wrote: |
Anyway, what is the difference in cup design between the Wedge and the NY 7?
In my own playing, I've observed that (at least for me) certain cup shapes seem better fit to certain backbores. |
The wedge is very different cup to the NY 7.
My wedge is on the shallow side, but I use the widest AR backbore shape (L or 10).
I do have a few deeper wedges that all work great with the AR backbore as well as a few cups I've made myself. _________________ www.divitt-trumpets.com
www.facebook.com/divitt.trumpets
www.instagram.com/divitttrumpets |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote: | cheiden wrote: | Understand that there are two general ways of creating a two-piece mouthpiece. Reeves separates the rim from the entire underpart (which includes both the cup and the backbore). I think this is also true for Bach though the threads are different. Done this way there are lsignificant imitations on which rims can be fit to the underpart since any misfit can be really irritating to the lips.
The other more common way is to separate the backbore from the entire top (rim and cup). A number of makers do it this way. As I understand it these parts are usually interchangeable. |
I just bought a Hammond fluffy mouthpiece, and it's a rim that screws onto a cup/backbore underpart. I was wondering if they're compatible with any of the other systems. Curious if there's a chart that lists screw systems and how they're typically done... |
From the photos on the website I'm seeing that Hammond does both threaded rims and threaded backbores though I'm not finding any indication if their rims use Reeves or Bach threads. I suspect you'd need to contact them to find out. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote: |
I just bought a Hammond fluffy mouthpiece, and it's a rim that screws onto a cup/backbore underpart. I was wondering if they're compatible with any of the other systems. Curious if there's a chart that lists screw systems and how they're typically done... |
From the photos on the website I'm seeing that Hammond does both threaded rims and threaded backbores though I'm not finding any indication if their rims use Reeves or Bach threads. I suspect you'd need to contact them to find out. |
I have a Hammond 1-1/2CH rim with Bach threads. I believe it was manufactured with them rather than cut from an underpart, as the threads are plated rather than raw brass. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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