Kanstul Bergeron

bebop · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 2:26 pm Post subject:

I have a Kanstul Wayne Bergeron on trial right now, and it's starting to feel and play like a large bore. Maybe even a little to big for me. I'm used to larger bore horns (Callet's)

Has anyone else felt the Bergeron was big , or is it just me? It seems to repond better than most lightweight horns, and has a excellent feel.

Any thoughts about this horn?

I'm playing on a GR65.5M and a Yamaha Shew Jazz piece.
Jim

a-okay · Veteran Member Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 168

I hope you realize the horn is not necessarily a ML bore. And they all play differently - see if you can get another to try

_dcstep · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:01 pm Post subject:

Which Callet? The Jazz isn't all that big because of its bore design.

I agree that the WB is a horn with a large feel. It has a large bell for sure. You might need to go to an MS as your main piece rather than your current M. When I went from a Yamaha Z to my large bore Selmer Paris Concept TT I had to downsize by one step (my LX became unuseable for me).

In the past I've made the mistake of thinking I couldn't handle a large horn because I was using the same mouthpiece that I used on a smaller horn. If you like the horn, then do a little experimenting with mouthpieces before giving up. I think there are several advantages to larger horns that are hard to replicate in smaller horns (it's all a set of compromises, so which you like will depend on personal preferance).

Dave

_________________
Selmer-Paris Concept TT w/ GR66S/GR66MS
Yamaha 731 Flugel w/ GR66FL
http://www.dcjb.com http://www.pitpops.com

[ This Message was edited by: dcstep on 2004-01-08 18:02 ]

bebop · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:30 pm Post subject:

I have played this Bergeron with my GR65.5MS #1 backbore and it does great , but then seems to get way to bright up high for my ears.

This Bergeron has regular bottom valve caps. I know the the early versions came with one heavy cap on the third valve. The heavy third cap would add a little stability to the sound , and something to push on.

Jim

bkmdano · Veteran Member Joined: 31 Oct 2002 Posts: 328

I found horns respond to the mouthpiece. I play a smaller mp on my Lawler than I did on my Schilke. The gap needs to be set for the mouthpiece. My Lawler was set for my Warburtons. Where as the Schilke, well it was set for a Schilke mp. You may ask Kanstul to set the gap for your mouthpiece and adjust the venturi a little. A custom horn can be adjusted to you.
_________________
Dan
Schilke B7Lgp
Schilke S33HDLg
Lawler TL6r1a
Schilke 1040 flugelhorn

_dcstep · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:49 pm Post subject:

Hmm, so you're not having endurance or range problems, is that correct? The main concern is the brightness as you go up higher, so it seems, so I'm thinking that using a 65.5MS with the #2 backbore might be better for your "normal" playing, then go to your #1 for lead playing only. The heavy cap might help a little, also a heavier weight GR might (I like the Studio blank).

Still, the WB is a fairly bright horn. Isn't the bell like a Bach 72*? That's considered pretty bright by most, so you might be fighting an uphill battle if that's not to your taste. I'd try messing with the mass and slightly different mouthpieces, but ultimately it may not be the horn for you.

Good luck in finding the right combination.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

_ConnMan · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 6:23 pm Post subject:

BeBop,

I had a WB on loan to me this past summer while my main axe was in getting some valve work done. I thought the WB was an AWSOME horn, but then again it had what I'm looking for in my next horn. You are right about the WB being bright up stairs. I experienced it to start getting brighter when you crested just above the staff. When you got up to around a A/B above the staff it was kick'n booty on the bright side! At the time I played this horn, I was playing a stock Bach 5C.

Do you find it somewhat "Fat" in the middle staff and below? I also had a chance to sit and listen to a guy test play the same WB. I might add this guy was about 20 times better at playing than me, too. This guy was use to playing a vintage Benge horn. I believe it was a large bore horn and I'm pretty sure he was playing a Bach 3C?? Anyways, it played the same way it did for me --- "Fat" in the staff and "After Burner Bright" up stairs.

I think this is the way the horn was designed and built to be played.

IMHO, I think Dave right about two things:
1. "You might be fighting an uphill battle." Maybe you're trying to make the horn sound like something "YOU" want and not letting it play the way it's suppose to.
2. "Try messing with the mass." There's nothing wrong with trying that. Is there anyway you can get maybe a Bach Megatone or even a sound sleeve for you mpce? The "Mass" shold darken you a little and helpwith centering.

I placed a thread several days ago about "Kantul WB and Mpce's". I noticed you're the only one who "Replied". Thanks! I was wondering about how the WB would react to different mpce's being use in it.

Keep us posted on your findings!

[EDIT] Oh yeh, the horn did seem way more open to me, BUT then again I play a Connstellation which has a .438 to it. Tak about a shock. I did notice that I tirred out a little quicker. I assume it was because it took more air than I'm normally used to.

_________________
ConnMan

[ This Message was edited by: ConnMan on 2004-01-08 21:25 ]

BADBOY-DON · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 6:58 pm Post subject:

Remember that if that Callet of your's is the JAZZ. It is an "Expandabore design, which starts at the leadpipe at a mere .353 and ends up at the 3rd valve at the full. .470 Both my Callet horns are expandabore horns...and depending which mp you are using.....I would bet that you can come up with a great mp combination back-bore that will serve you extremely well.
Give Jerome or Kanstul a call...talk the situation over. As you know, Jerry is very very good at working out mps to leadpipe situations.
Good luck!!!

I have one question about that RB horn of yours...Would you say that it plays brighter or darker than your Callet horn? I didn't have my Jazz along at the time that I got a chance to try out a RB horn...or that new Conn Vintage One horn. The Vintage one that I recently tried seemed very dark in comparison to my Callet...and noticably darker in direct side by side comparison to my YTR 739 Yammmmeee'? with the same Warburton 4 Vs mouthpiece with the #8 backbore.

_dcstep · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 7:45 pm Post subject:

Badboy, what's this "RB" horn you're talking about? Just trying to follow the thread.

Dave
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

camelbrass · Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 10:11 pm Post subject:

Hi,

Jim, I agree it does play biggish. I found it very comfortable and I like large bore horns. I played it with my GR 3 HC* which has GRs #3 backbore and found it had a great sound, not brittle but definitely bright up high. As Dave has suggested it maybe very mouthpiece sensitive.

[ This Message was edited by: camelbrass on 2004-01-09 01:14 ]

1B · Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:08 am Post subject:

I have a friend who studies with Wayne. He said the horn is a copy of Wayne's Bach 72 lightweight.
1B

BADBOY-DON · Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:18 am Post subject:

Steve...OPPS!
Another typo error...How did I hit an R instead of a W? brain glitch...sign again of too many high notes....

OR WORSE.

BADBOY-DON · Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:30 am Post subject:

HorneyMikey · Veteran Member Joined: 18 Jun 2003 Posts: 325

I have also talked to Jim New and Jack Kanstul about this horn. They both said it is similar to Wayne's Bach 72LT, but "more refined". They (Kanstul) took the time to improve on the inconsistancies that are well known in Bach instruments. PickMusic in PA quoted me a very resonable price on the WB1600, which is only a bit higher than new BAch Bb's are going for.

Plus, I really dig that brushed laquer finish. I was told that Wayne is going to get his horn gold plated, which will make it look like the Monette gold horns.
Sounds like a winner to me.................

mike

[ This Message was edited by: HorneyMikey on 2004-01-09 12:46 ]

2LIP · Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:33 am Post subject:

Kanstul ZKT 1600 has a similar bell to the Bach 72* for size comparison purposes only. It is a Kanstul large throat bell that has a thinner guage material than Kanstul's standard bell. It is not even close to as thin as a Berylium bell from Schilke or as thin as the bell that Kanstul can custom add to the 1500 like they did for Tim Wendt. I have played a Bach 72*, and the ZKT 1600 and they are not even close. The leadpipe is totally different, bracing is not close to the same, valve block is ALL Kanstul, spit valves are Amado standard (I am told that you can have that changed if you would like). Play the horn and they are very different. Hold the horn and they are very different. I purchased the Kanstul in 2003 and didn't consider the 72* Bach in my hunt for new horns (I don't like the feel of a Bach in my hands and I don't like the way they sound from low to high).

The Kanstul on the other hand is just what the posts above are saying. Big and fat in the lows and mids and brightens up above the staff. It is not a harsh bright that would hurt your ears at the back of the hall, but it will power over a big band or amplified instruments as needed with the right amount of gas. This horn is a riot to play and personally it works well for me. As I have said before, it is a great value and probably under priced which is great for us players.

If this is a copy to a Bach 72*, then I would take that the same as the Yamaha Shew horn is the same as the Schilke B7 and the Vax horn is the same as an S32. There are similarities, but they are not close to the same when you play them.

Lastly, I had to switch MP's when I went to this horn, or it didn't feel right for me. IMHO, the Curry 300 series is a good place to start.

Off my rant.

The LIP

[ This Message was edited by: 2LIP on 2004-01-09 13:35 ]

bgwbold · Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 11:00 am Post subject:

I had never heard the story that the Wayne Bergeron model is based on the 72* Bach, but having played both (not enough on the WB), I would say that there are a lot of similarities between them in the way they play. I have no doubt that if Kanstul wanted to, they could make just about any type of horn they wanted to.

Mike

bebop · Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 2:48 pm Post subject:

I think that the only thing Wayne had Kanstul do to the 1503 was open up the leadpipe a little at the receiver end. Wayne had used 1 heavy cap on the third and also on the third valve at times.

I do think that this horn is mouthpiece sensitive. I don't think it feels huge just a big open blow, that reponds great.
Jim