High C - Time to forget Lips not Tongue control pitch?

[steve0930]

Hello Trumpet Players

I was watching a Javier Gonzalez video - he explains how he focused on the lead pipe for a year - working on the tongue position to change pitch. "Nice Guy but in that respect he's wrong" I thought. Eminent (in TH) physicists like Kalijah have proved that."But then a second thought occurred to me "How can Javier be so wrong (about the tongue) and yet play so right - is there a connection?"

I know the notes above the staff are very close together - and assuming you have a Balanced enough Embouchure - small, indeed very small changes are required to change pitch. I accept all the arguments that Lip Posture effect the change but is it counter productive /not useful / slows progress if, in our mental/physical set up we take the Tongue out of the pitch equation?

I read just now there are 8 muscles in the tongue. It's not floating around in our mouth like some Wordsworthian cloud - the Tongue must be pretty much connected to everything. So by treating / experimenting with the Tongue as an agent of pitch change will you be starting a sequence of events that initiate pitch change? Furthurmore because the Tongue is, unlike the lips, not the Primary agent, is it more effective at achieving the level of fine tuning you need above the staff? Indeed could thinking "lips for pitch change" above the staff be also counterproductive - using a hammer to crack an egg? Maybe to all intents and purposes Javier was right all along.

Best wishes and stay safe Steve in Helsinki
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[acritzer]

What he does on the lead pipe is crazy!

I think most everything in the embouchure is connected in some way. Too many small muscles moving in coordination to actually control them specifically or individually. What certain players choose to focus on is up to them. Lots of the control comes almost as a side effect.

[Trumpjerele]

[JayKosta]

[acritzer]

[kalijah]

[Jaw04]

It doesn’t matter that the partials are closer together in the upper register. That doesn’t make higher notes easier to hit unfortunately.

There is so much variation among players and also the big variation in the upper register especially is DYNAMIC level. How loud you are playing has a lot to do with the mechanics up high. Mechanics can’t be put into words that work for players across the board.

[kehaulani]

Here comes the monkey wrench. I was listening to an interview of Eric Miyashiro, and he said that he never uses the tongue (for range/pitch).
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[dstpt]

...

[ErikA]

I used to rely only on aperture and diaphragm to change pitch. Perhaps my tongue moved too but it didn't feel like it and I never felt the need to add it to the toolkit. Then I started consciously using the tongue as well, and that seems to help.

Whatever the physics are, it helps mentally to be conscious of all the different ways to change pitch. The trick is learning how to blend them. Still working on that.

[kurth83]

The first famous trumpet player I know of who claimed that tongue was a contributor to pitch control was Claude Gordon. I studied under him for a bit so I can regurgitate some of what he said.

This was one of Claude's favorite stories on "tongue level" as he called it:
There was a famous trumpet player back then (known for his high register) who claimed he did not use tongue for pitch in response to Claude's claims. It took a while but Claude eventually convinced him to be x-rayed while playing, and yes he did indeed use the tongue as Claude claimed. Claude usually told it anonymously like that, but we all knew it was Maurice Andre.

So when another player claims no tongue, I tend to figure they are simply un aware of what they are doing.

I think the moral of the story is that thinking about the tongue is optional, but using it is not. Claude however taught consciously using the tongue "aw-ee-aw-ee" as you went up and down.

Now those older guys used traditional embouchures AFAIK. I suppose it is possible that things really are different with BE and others like it, but I kinda want to see the xrays (or maybe ultra-sound these days)...

[kehaulani]

Ref. use of tongue for range/pitch. Isn't that in Arban?
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[kurth83]

Interesting, so it dates back to the "beginning", Arban, Clark, etc. And been controversial just as long I think.

[JayKosta]

[kalijah]

[mafields627]

[Rod Haney]

[Jaw04]