Schilke 17, 16C4 and Yamaha 16C4GP

[richarddownunder]

Hi All

After having played a Yamaha 16C4GP for many years (off and on), more recently on my Eclipse Celeste (which is great and has a rich warm sound), I thought I'd explore other mouthpieces, mostly out of interest to see what effect it had. I play mostly concert band and a little solo work. My preference is classical. I don't have a need to play very high (above D). I guess the aim was to get a bit more core and presence without losing subtlety and control...perhaps a little more open blowing as I have moved from a reverse leadpipe horn to the traditional Celeste.

In New Zealand, there seems to be a fairly limited selection to try. They boil down to Schilke, Bach and Wick. I tried and initially liked the Schilke 17 which I bought. However, I find I tire quickly and it's not as comfortable as the Yamaha - it's certainly bigger. It does have a more centred (or however it is described) tone and has a bigger volume, not surprisingly.

Just wondered if anyone has experience with the Schilke 16C4 and whether it is significantly different to the Yamaha with the same numbers? It is slightly bigger (17.2 vs 17 mm) diameter but is it more free blowing with a generally similar flat rim?

In the end, I might just stick to the Yamaha for most playing and pull out the Schilke 17 for solo work that doesn't require much high stuff.

I did try a Wick 3? and that was nice to play but perhaps a little less crisp - a bit too cornet-like. Also a Schilke 17d4d which sounded good but just not that flexible - hard to pitch and articulate.

It's certainly a can of worms but any thoughts much appreciated. I also discovered that what I hear isn't what someone standing in front of me hears!

Cheers
Richard

[zaferis]

Yes, a can of worms!

My advice is to stick to the Yamaha 16C4GP..
If you are curious to explore, consider going in the direction of a smaller diameter. I'm on the side of the fence that thinks anything bigger than the Bach 3 / Yamaha 14 rim diameter is Large and on the extreme - the area of the professional player that is practicing and playing all the time, with a very strong embouchure and fundamentals.

I find the Yamaha 14C4GP and 14C4 to be an excellent choice. I think you'd find you will have little to no loss of tone on the warm side, but gain the ability to brighten up more easily, that top D will gain a little zing and you will likely gain endurance.

cheers

BTW -I'm not a fan of Schilke rim shape in general. Too rounded ("soft") taking away a little clarity of articulation and tends to encourage pressure.
_________________
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Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[Andy Cooper]

It sounds like you are basically happy with the Yamaha 16C4GP - just want small changes.
1. Try a standard weight Yamaha 16C4. You will get more feedback and it might "feel" more open too.

2. If that gets you closer to your desired feel, but is not open enough, have the throat opened to a #26 or try the Schilke 16C4. The rim is similar to the 17D4D rim but should feel a little smaller because of the bite. The Schilke 16C4 has the same throat and backbore as the #17.
3. Other things to consider: have a Yamaha 16C4 top cut and threaded for Warburton backbores and the throat opened to #26. Then purchase or have made a stock Schilke backbore.

(Oh - the Schilke 17D4 is more playable than the 17D4D. Nice and dark but you have to play pretty loud to put an edge on it. You could also take a Bach2C for a test drive - similar design to the Yamaha 16C4)

[richarddownunder]

Thanks for those replies. That's all good advice. I think the point about lack of endurance is the key one. I could probably improve my upper register with practice but still wouldn't last a full concert. I get what you say about pressure too. However, the Schilke does have a bigger sound in the mid register so might be worth keeping for those occasions when it is needed. It'd blow peoples socks off at a wedding with an organ for example .

I have tried smaller mouthpieces, but not those Yamaha ones specifically. Living over here means finding a machinist that would modify a mouthpiece would be a challenge so I think modification is probably out - also I'd have to import the other components. The standard Yamaha is a possibility and I could try the Schilke 16C4 if it is a flatter rim and slightly bigger throat (I cant find those dimensions on the net). Hadn't considered a Bach 2C but I have an Alliance 6 mouthpiece - very nicely made, better finish than anything I have seen apart from the Yamaha - and comfortable but a bit too small for my chops - better high but loses tone a bit in mid-lower range compared with the Yamaha16C4GP.
Cup Diameter: 16.7 mm
Rim: 5.5 mm
Bore: 3.7 mm
Cup: Medium
Comparison: Bach 2C
https://www.alliancebrassltd.com/product/trumpet-mouthpiece-silver-plated/

Cheers
Richard

[zaferis]

Just know that Bach mouthpieces aren't related to one another. They weren't designed to have any relationship to each other.. VB made one for himself, then his friends asked for variations and it developed from there. So going from a 1C to a 2C don't expect them to be alike, or conform to some logical progression.

A Bach 2C tends to have a deepish bowl shaped cup and the riim is quite sharp.. a great sound, with clear articulation, but the bite can cause issues.

I'd highly encourage you to find someone local that can work with you on your mouthpiece safari - before you end up with a shoe box full of recommended mouthpieces that really don't work for you.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[richarddownunder]

[Bionx]

Sharing my 2 cents:

I managed to try a Yamaha 16C4GP (heavytop) and standard 16C4 (non heavy top) pre covid, and got my hands on a Bach 2C during covid. I’d say that the standard 16C4 was closest to a Bach 2C, with the Bach 2C having more bite than the Yamaha. The Heavytop version was different - more centred and gave a somewhat darker sound. Perhaps due to the heavytop, it was difficult to “manipulate” the sound for different music styles (but that’s also why we have different mouthpieces for different settings ya). That said, neither of the 3 pieces appealed to me. They all feel tight. I usually play a 24 or 25 throat and those Yamahas were just not for me.

Schilke 16C4 is different. First notes were impressive. Very free blowing; not sure what throat/BB it uses but definitely felt open. If you’re someone who wants a big bright sound, this is really one mouthpiece you should try! While i usually use a roughly 2C rim diameter, the Schilke 16C4 did not feel very big even though it is supposed to be much bigger (16.5mm VS 17.2mm). The cup depth was a bit on the shallow side and the bite was gentle. Good stuff and it was relatively inexpensive too.

With all that said, I strongly believe that mouthpieces are a very personal thing. You really gotta try them to know if it works for you. One man’s meat could be another man’s poison.

P/S: as with any mouthpiece, try them before you buy. And even if you’ve found a brand and model you think you like, try as many pieces of the exact same model (if the shop allows you to). Where I’m at, the shop had two Schilke 16C4 but only one played gloriously.

Cheers
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