Monel vs Nickel

Marc M · Regular Member Joined: 29 May 2022 Posts: 15

What is better? Monel valves or Nickel valves?

Dayton · Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:29 am Post subject:

Better in terms of performance? I prefer Getzen (nickel) but companies like Schilke and Van Laar make excellent monel valves. I've had no issue with Bach, Shires or (modern) Yamaha monel valves either.

In terms of longevity, I believe nickel is supposed to be more durable, but you'll get decades of good use out of well-maintained monel valves, so I wouldn't make a purchase decision on a horn solely based on nickel or monel.

OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441

Workmanship is the most important part. I've seen excellent valves in Nickel, Monel & Stainless - and also the opposite.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

deanoaks · Regular Member Joined: 02 Apr 2015 Posts: 75 Location: US

The material of the valves is kind of irrelevant in the grand scheme of the horn. Valve tolerances have a massive impact on the response of the instrument, so if you're interested in ensuring your response stays more consistent than you may want to steer towards stainless steel valves or monel. I've personally found that stainless steel and it's inability to truly break-in doesn't work for me personally, but plenty of people love them. Nickel is a bit more malleable than monel, if memory serves. Doesn't hold up as well overtime.

Ultimately, the material of the valves should be an afterthought more than any sort of deciding factor for the instrument.

Goby · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 652

Monel is harder than nickel in its raw state, but gets softened by the process of brazing the piston together. Unless the Monel is put through a hardening process after assembly (e.g. Conn Cry-Steel), you have a piston where the middle part is softer than the edges, which further exacerbates the hour-glass wear pattern that pistons naturally get. Nickel plate is an even hardness over the whole piston, and when done well, lasts a long time. Low quality plating can peel off, destroying the piston tolerances. Stainless is a newer material for pistons, and less expensive than Monel. Truthfully, the material doesn't really make a difference as long as the valve is manufactured to a high quality and properly maintained. If you wanted a definitive answer to "which one is better", the answer is "neither".

Tony Scodwell · Heavyweight Member Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961

Monel was developed initially for marine use as salt water is quite corrosive. Because of Monel's ability to withstand corrosion it soon found favor in musical instrument maker's valves. It laps in beautifully and will last virtually forever. Nickel plated valves were the industry standard for many years prior to Monel and some makers prefer it still. When I was endorsing Getzen trumpets in the sixties I loved watching the women methodically lapping the nickel plated valves in. Certainly it was necessary to have the proper feel for this and of course the Getzen valves are legendary for great action. Most makers have switched to Monel and stainless steel isn't used much at all. My experience with stainless steel valves was with the Bauerfeind valves I used on flugelhorns and piccolos when the horns I designed for DEG were in production. At that time Bauerfeind was owned by Wiilson, their instruments being imported by DEG. Bauerfeind was sold and after another acquisition is now owned by Adam in Holland. Stainless was a good material for valves and the only complaint I had was if the instrument sat unplayed for a couple of days the valves had a tendency to stick. No big deal and easily freed up.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com

wee steve · Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 12:29 am Post subject:

I’ve been using stainless steel Bauerfeind in my Eclipse for 15 years, they are superb. Recently traded it for a new model with HOxon Gakki (Carol) valves. Also stainless steel. I’m a massive fan of stainless steel. These two valve blocks are superb and so much faster than any Monel I’ve played. The new valve block just has better compression being new.
_________________
Eclipse Celeste MY 2023
B & S Challenger flugelhorn

Previous horns:
Eclipse Celeste CLS MY
Eclipse LY (rear tuned)
Bach ML37
B & S Challenger ii

shofarguy · Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:30 am Post subject:

My only experience with nickel plated valves has been when Kanstul rebuilt my Benge valves. So, I could sort of test the difference between the two in the same horn. When I consulted with Zig about rebuilding the valves, he told me the nickel would feel "slicker." He didn't say faster. I found his description accurate. However, because my valves had been sticking badly, they were seriously faster, too.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

kehaulani · Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:47 am Post subject:

I've played a fair representation of horns, both new and vintage and never had a valve problem, regardless of age or style. No offense to anyone, but I find the hype of Getzen valves exaggerated. My Getzens haven't been better or worse than any of my other horns. To me, quality of materials and workmanship are far more significant that Monel or Nickel.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

wee steve · Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:58 am Post subject:

Interesting, your Adams will have stainless steel valves. Do you feel
Any difference?. My Monel valve blocks (Bach, B&S) have been good but not compared to the stainless steel valves. Obviously this is only my opinion.
_________________
Eclipse Celeste MY 2023
B & S Challenger flugelhorn

Previous horns:
Eclipse Celeste CLS MY
Eclipse LY (rear tuned)
Bach ML37
B & S Challenger ii

kehaulani · Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:09 am Post subject:

@wee steve - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpJOxbaC8YU
If the valves do what I need them to do, I am not concerned beyond that.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

wee steve · Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2023 8:13 am Post subject:

OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441

Nickel is harder than what the casings are made of. Monel is harder than what the casings are made of. Stainless is harder than what the casings are made of.

It's not the piston that wears (the secret to how Getzen can offer a lifetime warranty on PISTONS - its not valves, its pistons that they cover)

Want to waste some time learning way more than is necessary about valve wear? investigate optimum viscosity studies for oil, or read up on the merits of bronze vs brass casings as experimented with by Conn and Bach - or Selmer's sleeved casings to avoid the excessively soft brass issue from assembly process annealing.

As was said above, all of these metals work, if the workmanship is right.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20