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Gonya
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 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 4:18 pm Post subject: Downstream embouchure with low placement? |
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| I have been reading a lot about the Reinhardt system, and I was fairly confident I am a type IV because I have low placement and all of the tendencies of type IV's matched up with my experience. However, I realized that when I remove the mouthpiece while playing, the air is moving very much in a downward direction in the lower register, and a little below horizontal in the upper register. I have a tear drop lip (I've also heard this called a cupids bow), so maybe that has something to do with it. Is it possible to be a downstream player with a low placement, or is trying to judge where the air is going without a visualizer useless? |
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Bethmike
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Bumping this up because I want to hear the responses as well.
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Gonya
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| It's bizarre because I have never seen anything about a low placement embouchure being downstream. Either I am a rare exception or I'm not actually downstream and something is changing when I take the mouthpiece off. |
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 4:11 am Post subject: |
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I think there is a lot of interesting and helpful information in this thread -
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1637456#1637456
I believe that how a player uses and positions their lower jaw (to control and adjust rim pressure) has a big effect on the direction of the air stream, and their Reinhardt 'type'.
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Is it possible to be a downstream player with a low placement, or is trying to judge where the air is going without a visualizer useless? |
Technically, it is possible, but not likely. Sometimes the outer mouthpiece placement might make an embouchure look one thing but when you look at it inside a transparent mouthpiece the lip texture is such that one lip blows out and flips the air stream direction different from what you expect. Sometimes that means the player really should move the mouthpiece placement to a more appropriate one to match what is happening. More rarely, that's just correct for the individual.
But really, peeling away the mouthpiece and instrument to look for your air stream direction really doesn't work. The mouthpiece placement is what makes an embouchure upstream or downstream and removing it from the equation changes around the parameters to the point of not being trustworthy. That's particularly true for upstream embouchures, I believe.
| Quote: | | I believe that how a player uses and positions their lower jaw (to control and adjust rim pressure) has a big effect on the direction of the air stream, and their Reinhardt 'type'. |
Well, yes and no. The position of their jaw and horn angle is part of the identifying characteristics of Reinhardt's embouchure types, but it has a negligible effect on the air stream direction. Again, that's a factor of mouthpiece placement. You can find both upstream and downstream players with a high horn angle as well as a receded jaw position/lowered horn angle. Horn angle and jaw position is important for well functioning brass embouchures, but it doesn't really tell you when a player is (or should be) upstream or downstream.
Gonya, if you want to know your embouchure type and use this information to make your practice more efficient you should at least post video of your chops close up playing your whole range (octave slurs are great). Let some experienced brass teachers look at how you're playing. Self diagnosis is hard, even if you're an experienced teacher or player already. Always best to remove yourself from the diagnosis process and let a less biased opinion take a look.
Dave
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BeboppinFool
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:43 am Post subject: |
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For years, I played as IIIB with a low mouthpiece placement, about 1/3 upper and 2/3 lower. So the short answer is, yes, you can have a low mouthpiece placement and be a downstream player.
As Dave alluded, to be absolutely sure of a player's type you need to watch them play through a transparent mouthpiece, and the direction of the airstream is determined by which lip predominates into the mouthpiece. There are videos online that show this, the Leno embouchure videos among them, I believe.
I seem to recall that Doug Elliott made a video many years ago viewing players through his transparent mouthpieces that are some of the best I've seen, although I don't think they were in slo-mo like Leno. However, you could really tell when a player was upstream or downstream, which to me was very cool.
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peanuts56
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| BeboppinFool wrote: | For years, I played as IIIB with a low mouthpiece placement, about 1/3 upper and 2/3 lower. So the short answer is, yes, you can have a low mouthpiece placement and be a downstream player.
As Dave alluded, to be absolutely sure of a player's type you need to watch them play through a transparent mouthpiece, and the direction of the airstream is determined by which lip predominates into the mouthpiece. There are videos online that show this, the Leno embouchure videos among them, I believe.
I seem to recall that Doug Elliott made a video many years ago viewing players through his transparent mouthpieces that are some of the best I've seen, although I don't think they were in slo-mo like Leno. However, you could really tell when a player was upstream or downstream, which to me was very cool. |
Rich, curious to know how you would classify Mark Zauss and Tony Kadleck. Both are great players with excellent range. Both appear to be down streamers with a low mp placement. |
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Gonya
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BeboppinFool
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| peanuts56 wrote: | | Rich, curious to know how you would classify Mark Zauss and Tony Kadleck. Both are great players with excellent range. Both appear to be down streamers with a low mp placement. |
I wouldn’t dare try (anymore) without a transparent mouthpiece. I would also probably send someone to Doug Elliott to determine their correct type rather than do it myself since I have mis-classified twice and don’t want strike three.
Something else I think Dave mentioned above was the fact that determining our own type may not be the best idea. Once I had Doug take a good look at my chops (last September) he had me try going to IIIA and now, eight months later, that is finally taking hold and I think I may be able to play well again hopefully before too much longer.
Yes, that’s my new policy: let Doug figure it out.
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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Do you make any attempt to 'aim' your air into the mouthpiece cup (what direction for various notes / range)?
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KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Gonya
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: |
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Do you make any attempt to 'aim' your air into the mouthpiece cup (what direction for various notes / range)? |
This isn’t something that I really think about. When I ascend, I just think about what it feels like and not exactly what I’m doing, but I’m pretty sure that the air is going into the mouthpiece at a higher angle as I go higher. What may be happening is even though it looks like a low placement on the outside, there may be more top lip than bottom on the inside due to the way that my lips are shaped. As suggested, I’ll stop trying to type myself because I don’t know what I am anymore.
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JayKosta
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Gonya wrote: | | As suggested, I’ll stop trying to type myself because I don’t know what I am anymore. |
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And at the individual level, the goal is to find the specifics of what works for you.
It's not really important that 'what works for you' matches what works for most people of your 'type'.
From the viewpoint of a teacher or coach, correctly determining a player's 'type' and then at the start trying the usual techniques for that type is probably a good method.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Gonya
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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I do seem to have the tendencies of an upstream player such as having an easier time with flexibility and compression in the embouchure, and the way people have described how an upstream players endurance works like getting a double buzz when tired. You’re right that one does not need to know their exact embouchure type in Reinhardt terms in order to know what works for them.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Downstream embouchure with low placement? |
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| Gonya wrote: | | I have been reading a lot about the Reinhardt system, and I was fairly confident I am a type IV because I have low placement and all of the tendencies of type IV's matched up with my experience. However, I realized that when I remove the mouthpiece while playing, the air is moving very much in a downward direction in the lower register, and a little below horizontal in the upper register. I have a tear drop lip (I've also heard this called a cupids bow), so maybe that has something to do with it. Is it possible to be a downstream player with a low placement, or is trying to judge where the air is going without a visualizer useless? |
I don't think you can tell anything meaningful without the mouthpiece rim in place. When people set the mouthpiece, often one or the other lip will roll/unroll from the mouthpiece contact. For example, if you blow down your chin and press low enough on the top lip with a finger without changing anything else, the airstream will often shoot upwards.
I think the airstream direction is ultimately the least important part of the reinhardt stuff. The air goes where the air goes. It's the correct pivot/embouchure motion that matters.
As IIIB and IVs have the same pivot, I don't know it is really something to worry about? Not a Reinhardt expert like Rich & Dave etc so defer to their advice.
| Quote: | | how you would classify Mark Zauss and Tony Kadleck. Both are great players with excellent range. Both appear to be down streamers with a low mp placement. |
I don't think they have a low placements at all. Both look to have more top lip under the rim.
Mark Zauss is probably a IIIB playing on a small diameter. He definitely pulls down to ascend.
Tony Kadleck is probably a IIIA playing on a medium diameter. He seems to push up to ascend. He is setting in/on the red of the lower lip, and has way more top lip in the cup.
Neither have low placements IMO. In Zauss' case it only looks low because it's a small diameter, so it's less obvious, but it looks 60-40ish to me.
Watch Zauss here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raexBsiEwkQx
It's most obvious on the lip flexibilities at the end. It's down to his right to ascend, and up to the left to descend.
I think when people learn about Reinhardt, they hear about type IVs like Jon Faddis, Doc Severinsen, Bud Brisbois and their brain starts to assume that people who can really play in the extreme upper register must be upstream and so they start to see what they are expecting. But in terms of lead trumpet players, I'd say completely based on players that come to mind, that there are probably less upstream lead players around then downstream ones. |
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:09 am Post subject: |
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I'll put my nickel down on Type IV/upstream. I'd be pretty surprised if you're actually playing downstream with your low mouthpiece placement.
I'm also an upstream player and if I blow a note and then pull my mouthpiece off the air stream switches to blowing down also. As I mentioned earlier, that's a pretty meaningless test to determine a player's air stream direction, particularly for upstream players.
Dave
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Gonya
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Wilktone"] | Quote: |
I'm also an upstream player and if I blow a note and then pull my mouthpiece off the air stream switches to blowing down also. As I mentioned earlier, that's a pretty meaningless test to determine a player's air stream direction, particularly for upstream players.
Dave |
Good to know, and it makes sense. It's difficult to determine these things yourself.
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Doug Elliott
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:39 am Post subject: |
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Because of the shape of your lips, what looks like low placement from the outside is clearly not actually low placement on the inside. You cut off the video a little too quickly but I managed to get a screen shot right at the last fraction of a second when you remove the mouthpiece.
You're a IIIB and there's absolutely no question in my mind about that. |
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You're a IIIB and there's absolutely no question in my mind about that. |
I don't see that myself, but if Doug is that confident maybe I'm off base in my assessment. Being upstream myself, maybe I tend to see what I'm looking for instead of what's really there. Yet another reason to not self-diagnose your own chops, but get an outside opinion.
Dave
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Doug Elliott
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:05 am Post subject: |
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The centerline of his aperture is at least 1/4" below the centerline of the rest of his lips. You can see it as he removes the mouthpiece at the end, and you can see it in the picture.
This is not the first time I've seen that situation. |
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bach_again
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Doug Elliott wrote: | The centerline of his aperture is at least 1/4" below the centerline of the rest of his lips. You can see it as he removes the mouthpiece at the end, and you can see it in the picture.
This is not the first time I've seen that situation. |
This was my inclination/guess as well, having noted the lip shape/aperture placement.
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