Is a pro horn really that much better than the beginner horn

[ecafdrib]

I have to ask this!! I just do. I play guitar and piano and in that world, I understand the $2,000 Fender Tele is much better than the $200 knock-off beginner guitar - and I know the reasons why it is better.

But with a trumpet, I just don't fully understand yet. How is the $3,000 pro trumpet better than the $300 beginner trumpet? Is it sound, playability, functionality?

An example, a nice American-made Fender Strat or Tele will have better fret edges, more stable saddles and bridges, better pickups, a better nut, maybe locking tuners, just better material for the frets and so on.. I can see why that is a better product. What exactly is it about the pro trumpet that makes it worth so much more?

I ask because I am in the market and looking for a good, used, pro trumpet...

Thanks guys
~Arty
_________________
Trumpets are very much like jerks, they sound the best when they are muted.
______________________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8C2LJ_M0q8&list=PLtEjClG65CHKqJWUHEkssH9uVS8wD6opd

[Steve A]

There isn't just one answer to this, because it depends on the pro horn, and on the beginner horn, and on the preferences and skills of the player, but all things being equal, pro trumpets, like pro guitars, are just generally better than beginner trumpets.

They have a better sound. They have a wider dynamic range. They have more even response in different ranges. They have better tuning. They're just better.

However, to some extent, as with guitars, or any other instrument, the player still makes the difference. A developing player can sound just as weak on a pro horn (or even more so, given that they're often somewhat less resistant). Really, there's no way to know how you'll find it, other than trying one. Maybe ask a friend to borrow their instrument for a few days? If you end up buying a used pro instrument at a reasonable price, you can likely resell it if you don't like it, and it'll probably only cost you shipping fees in the end.

[Winghorn]

What Steve said.

[shofarguy]

What I've gathered over the years:

Student horns are designed for young players. They are usually not as delicate. Often, the thickness of the bell is heavier so that it will resist denting. Machined parts are usually simpler with little or no ornamentation.

I've seen bell designs used that didn't project well. The Yamaha student horns I've played were like that.

I owned a Holton Collegiate student horn from the late '60s that had a lead pipe taper that stayed very small up until the last few inches where it grew to its full diameter very quickly. This made the horn play easily and in tune in the staff, but intonation would go all to heck when playing with a Harmon mute.

Zig Kanstul, of Kanstul Musical Instrument Company (defunct) got a large contract for horns, but needed to train a new group of fabricators. So, he used these people to build a line of student instruments so they could gain the skills needed to produce world class instruments.

Recently, Flip Oakes invested in what he called his Fusion line of instruments, which were produced in Asia. The builder he worked with offered to have their two best technicians build his instruments at a premium, which Flip payed for. Their product was outstanding, even if the builder was cumbersome to work with.

To summarize, design considerations, development and production skill level may all come into play separating the low-cost student horn from a higher cost professional instrument.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[lipshurt]

The main difference is in the number of hours required to make the horn. The materials are essentially the same.

Tubes are tubes. Crooks are crooks

The main points of dif are the fitting of the valves, which means honing the casings and (or maybe NOT) honing the pistons, and getting the clearance exactly right. Most student line horns have less perfectly fitted valves. There are pro horns with less than perfect valve fit, and I’ve seen student horns with beautifully fitted valves, but generally that is a big point of difference.

Next the fit of the receiver and the exact Venturi size takes some time and expertise, and student horns can be weird in how the mouthpiece fit, and insertion depth is handled. It’s a big point of difference and the difference is in the amount of human time allotted to getting it right.

Soldering can be shoddy of horns and student horns get less time spent. You can find joints that never hit solder, or were chemically cleaned and the solder was dissolved and resulted in leaky joints. That is big with the cheap Chinese horns. Instead of scraping excess solder by hand which takes a long time, they use a chemical process that removes excess solder, and it’s problematic.

Bells on student horns are usually either stamped one piece or are two piece. Two piece can be a good sounding bell and not always a “student” thing. It takes more time though to make a hand hammered (as opposed to big one shot stamping that roughs out the basic shape before it’s spun on the bell mandrel. The time spent making the bell is a big point of dif.

So basically it’s the time spent. And it’s possible to find a student horn than lucked out and was mage perfect,y and sounds and plays great. And honestly, that is not uncommon. You can also find “pro” j]horns where something went wrong or many things went not quite right, and it doesn’t play better you basic student horn. That is not that uncommon either by the way.
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt

[Andy Cooper]

Is a student horn that much better than a pro horn?

For a beginner - no. (Assumes the trumpet is of reasonable quality and condition.)
In guitar terms - you could pick up any pawn shop guitar that was tunable and play the chords for "We Wish You a Merry Christmas".

Could you replicate a solo rendition of Malaguena with such a guitar?
A quality guitar is more than just the materials . Set up - subtleties in the bracing, wood thickness etc,



I can play 3rd parts in a section just fine with an old $60 cornet from Goodwill Auctions. (And I do - with $200 worth of mouthpiece from "lipshurt".) But if I have to play first chair, a pro quality instrument is really important for quality of sound, accuracy, and endurance.

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

It's a good question and the comments above are very helpful. The analogy to guitar is good. I bought a cheap guitar recently and its whole demeanor says "cheap." It looks kind of waxy. The wood is all pressed. It comes with a relatively unprotected cloth case.

With trumpets it will be the same. I do feel like instruments have changed some. Many of us grew up on tank-like Bundy or Ambassador trumpets, whereas now there are cheaper instruments from abroad that often wear out faster or have cheaper valves.

I'd try as many trumpets as you can and see what you like. Professional isn't necessarily characterized by light or heavy, but by quality build and finish.

[ecafdrib]

I love all the comments so far, thanks for the input. Still researching....


~Arty
_________________
Trumpets are very much like jerks, they sound the best when they are muted.
______________________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8C2LJ_M0q8&list=PLtEjClG65CHKqJWUHEkssH9uVS8wD6opd

[Yamahaguy]

There are some really fine horns available for reasonable prices...have you
checked the Marketplace?

[zaferis]

Yes, more than most realize.

From the quality of the brass, linings or platings, consistency and processes to make the tubing(s), quality of parts and degree of tolerances (especially in the valve block), the art of making a good bell, techiniques, skill, and time in assembly. And yes, it all makes a difference, whether it's recognized by the player or not.

Yes, the difference might not be as outwardly or accousticallly noticable, until you've grown in your skill and/or lived with the instrument for a period of time.

A bad instrument will hold the player back, a good one will allow the player to grow (often beyond what they can comprehend until they get there). And the spectrum instruments from one end to the other is poplulated by many trumpets- and not necessarily linked to price.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman

[improver]

Yes a professional trumpet is a better trumpet because of materials and craftsmanship

[Dave_3]

From strictly a money point of view.....

You can buy a "professional" trumpet, play it for ten years, and in all likelihood, it will still be a desirable, professional trumpet, that has reasonable value (assuming it has been cared for properly). You could sell it for a reasonable sum of money. Plus, you get to enjoy a "professional" trumpet, while you have it.

I played trumpet when I was a kid, but then I took about 48 year break (but kept up with the guitar). When I decided to play the trumpet again, about four years ago, I bought a 190S37 anniversary model (it's only money, right? ). But I figured that horn would always have some value, and I could cut my losses, if I ever decided to sell it. And in fact the price of the darn thing has gone up some $650 since I originally purchased mine.

Now, I don't plan to sell it, and don't know what it is worth on the used market. But I'm sure it is worth something, and I have enjoyed playing it.

[ecafdrib]

I found an almost brand new Yamaha 2330 for $150. I think I will get it and see the difference between what I have and that.

~Arty
_________________
Trumpets are very much like jerks, they sound the best when they are muted.
______________________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8C2LJ_M0q8&list=PLtEjClG65CHKqJWUHEkssH9uVS8wD6opd

[starkadder]

[ecafdrib]

[deleted_user_7354402]

When I teach students and they are looking to upgrade their horn or ask about what horn is worth it I always suggest looking at used pro line horns as opposed to new intermediate or beginner horns. There are several reasons
1. A well built professional horn often has more clearly defined slots for the notes and the sound between each note will tend to be consistent. This evenness can bell to build good habits such as steady air support and even sound concept. A horn that is not even on scale or slotting can create tension in players whose ears hear the inconsistencies and their body introduces tension in order to even the sound out. Fatigue and consistency become problems.
2. I tend to think that an intermediate horn might not hold you back but it won’t be able to go as far. Nearly every “intermediate” and beginner horn I’ve play tested for students is limited in the amount of volume the horn can produce and and the upper registers thin out. It’s not an immediate problem except for the fact that nearly every student I have worked with is able to play above the staff (albeit minimally for a few months). So it’s possible you’ll reach the horn’s “edges” earlier than you’d expect to. The extra time, care, tweaking, and materials that a pro horn usually has, will make the edges of playing (dynamics, slotting in upper register, extendable 3rd slide in low register, etc) more noticeable.
3. In general, a good pro horn, like a good pro guitar, has more depth and character to its sound. Yamaha, Bach, Shires, Olds, and Selmer (K-modified) horns all have distinct tones that are respectable and useable in most any situation. On the marketplace you will usually see decent deals on a horn that is good. For me , it’s a no brainer. The more interesting the sound, the more enjoyment I get from playing. The only caveat is there are some horns that are known for being great horns because the tone can be manipulated …. For better or worse. Finding an old Martin Committee can be a great find but the pitch and playing characteristics can be confusing to the ear. Lots of tone options, easy to bend the pitch around while keeping consistent tone (while great for personality, can be really fatiguing to a player who is developing)
4. Like entry level guitars, (we all know that one guy who found a fender Squier that he tricked out, optimized the fret edges and switched out all the nut and tuners , etc. … and made the guitar sound amazing) A great trumpet player will make any trumpet they pick up sound great. Tricking one out with weighted valve caps, suped up mouthpiece, etc. can make a horn sound better. But ultimately, the metal composition of the horn, (much like the tone wood of a guitar) is going to have a huge effect on ultimate tone of the instrument. If you can’t hear the different, then usually whatever you play is not the issue, but if you do hear the difference, the difference between high quality materials will drive you nuts. (Or at least it does me

I hope a couple of these thoughts help

[shofarguy]

[hsreed4]

Here's what I get out of pro horns over the student horn I still have:

1. Slotting, especially in the upper register. Pro horns lock into the pitch easier while student horns typically slot poorly

2. Intonation, significantly increased ability to change notes and stay in
tune with pro horns while students allow the pitch in a partial to vary greatly (thik slide whistle)

3. Size of sound, much more flexible to play soft/small and loud/big with a pro horn

4. Tone quality - some pro horns can produce a dark and dense sound while others can feel energetic and peel paint off the back wall - depends on what you want to do, what style you're playing

5. Ease of playing, less resistance and air leakage from all the gaps (valves, slides, soldering of joints, condensation relief valve, etc)

6. sticking of any moving parts, faster valves while all connections are tighter and stay in place. With a pro horn, you don't have to buy thick tuning slide grease to keep them in place and things/slides typically don't fall off the horn when you're playing.

Overall - my pro horns give me more flexibility to adjust my sound to what I want to play whereas a student horn is more of a one size - shall I say one sound - fits all. Think about going around a corner in a Toyota Corolla compared to an Indy car. Yes, the player makes a big difference, but it helps having good tools.

[ecafdrib]

[deleted_user_c11c97e]

I work at a company in Europe that sells beginner horns from a large asian country. (any guesses?)
I literally inspect thousands of trumpets a year, and here's what I've seen.

The cheap budget horns aren't really designed for anything - the goal is to make a playable instrument as cheaply as possible. For example - 11.68mm tubing isn't just made for the masses - it has to be drawn, with a specific bore and wall thickness in mind. It's much easier to find tubing that is 11.5mm or 12mm (yes, some student horns have this bore). The leadpipes aren't made with some perfectly thought out taper in mind, rather a straight linear taper from about 9mm up to whatever the bore size is.

When the horns are assembled, they are dunked (sometimes) into a vat of some unspeakable toxic liquid to eat away the visible solder from some sloppy solder joints - and if one joint is exeptionally sloppy the horn sits in the tank until it is clean - even if it makes other joints very weak - or no longer airtight.

Knowledge isn't passed down and retained - sometimes the workers work for a year or so, then leave to make cell phones somewhere else - there isn't a lot of skilled labor.

Machining - the tools aren't swapped out as often as they should be. This means many valve sections have terrible tolerances- Many horns are just copies of other horns - but they don't know which parts are critical to performance, and which ones aren't. (most often seen in saxophones)

Economy of scale, cheapest components possible.

Bear in mind this holds true for the vast majority of horns made from this unnamed large asian country, can't speak for student horns made in the states.