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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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I agree. To me, Bernstein often wrote and directed music that I would consider hectic. And that was a result of the complexity combined with the tempos he chose. I would take those tunes/passages at slower tempos to let the lines breathe. Evidently, Lenny's definition of breathe was "pant", LOL. I can only attribute this to style (vs. taste). _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Kehaulani,
My remark about Bernstein's unhappiness with Carreras was from an article I read some years back. He had to constantly correct Carreras and there was considerable tension.
Here is an article that does touch the surface of the tension and will give you an idea of Bernstein's relentless correcting.
https://www.classicfm.com/composers/bernstein-l/tense-west-side-story-recording-jose-carreras/
I have this recording and it is a great one, but as great as Carreras was, he really was not right for that role.
Jerry Hadley would have been perfect.
R. Tomasek |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks R. - . I wouldn't be surprised if Lenny was unhappy after the fact, just never heard that he was unhappy aforehand. I thought all the main singers were hand-picked by him, free of interference. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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MrClean Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Feb 2003 Posts: 2734 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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*None* of the voices were right for the Bernstein project. They’re supposed to be teenagers. It’s ridiculous. _________________ Jim Wilt
LA Philharmonic
Colburn School |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:14 am Post subject: |
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The only voice close to teenage was Kurt Ollmann's Biff.
Bernstein remarked there are no teenage opera singers.
R. Tomasek |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | The only voice close to teenage was Kurt Ollmann's Biff.
Bernstein remarked there are no teenage opera singers. |
My understanding is that, on this recording, opera was exactly what Bernstein was going for. But a Broadway musical about a bunch of NYC teenagers of very specific ethnicities is not Puccini. I think this was a miscalculation and was ever really comfortable with it. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:39 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Vin DiBona wrote: | The only voice close to teenage was Kurt Ollmann's Biff.
Bernstein remarked there are no teenage opera singers. |
My understanding is that, on this recording, opera was exactly what Bernstein was going for. But a Broadway musical about a bunch of NYC teenagers of very specific ethnicities is not Puccini. I think this was a miscalculation and was ever really comfortable with it. |
I'm guessing that this hits it on the head. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
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Daniel Barenboim Veteran Member
Joined: 20 May 2011 Posts: 247
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Just here to say the "good old days" are highly overrated. The level of playing today is much higher.
DB |
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Gottfried Reiche Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Nov 2013 Posts: 184
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Daniel Barenboim wrote: | Just here to say the "good old days" are highly overrated. The level of playing today is much higher.
DB |
Absolutely. I always chuckle when folks reference Bud with how to play an orchestral excerpt. Bud was no doubt a master, and pretty much the dean of American Orchestral Trumpet Playing. But nobody plays like that anymore. Nobody can win a job playing like that. Nobody can keep a job playing like that. It's simply outdated. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:48 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | I agree. To me, Bernstein often wrote and directed music that I would consider hectic. And that was a result of the complexity combined with the tempos he chose. I would take those tunes/passages at slower tempos to let the lines breathe. Evidently, Lenny's definition of breathe was "pant", LOL. I can only attribute this to style (vs. taste). |
Your referring to Berstein by the informal Lenny brings to mind a song that I really enjoy.
https://youtu.be/VnWc_UBcE7c _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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trahmput Regular Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2009 Posts: 15
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:56 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Vin DiBona"]There are issues with the new recording. Not so much the orchestra, but Dudamel. Bad balance and timing.
Here is the great Wilmer Wise leading the Mambo from Lenny's final recording.
(At one point, Bernstein told the engineers we have a genius first trumpet player back there).
Bernstein did not want Carrera as Tony. Wrong accent for the role and he had considerable trouble with the timing of the songs he sang.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lHASu_Yow4&list=OLAK5uy_kyh_PtmqoWm67RjT6hdIBZ4T1P6HCa50c&index=6
R. Tomasek[/quote]
In the studios the musicians play with a click track, and the conductor conducts along with the click track. Dudamel doesn’t/didn’t set the tempos on the click track. Balance is done in post by the engineers. Notes can be moved/lined up in post. So if you don’t like those aspects, you gotta take that up with the producers, not the players or the conductor. |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1888
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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So the conductor doesn't set the tempo and doesn't balance the orchestra. So what does he do? Besides earn the most money in the orchestra? : |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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I hope this is tongue in cheek, but the conductor most certainly does set the tempo and balance. Even if he uses a click tack and balance is manipulated by editing, it's not up to the sound men, necessarily, how to do the manipulation. Doesn't the conductor have the last word anyway? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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robert_white Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Feb 2003 Posts: 1583
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Daniel Barenboim wrote: | Just here to say the "good old days" are highly overrated. The level of playing today is much higher.
DB |
Definitely not applicable to Uan Rasey or Pete Candoli, though. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9033 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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How about:
Manny Klein
Conrad Gozzo
Raphael Mendez
Clark Terry
Mel Broils
Doc Severinsen
Bud Herseth
Pete Candoli _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | I hope this is tongue in cheek, but the conductor most certainly does set the tempo and balance. Even if he uses a click tack and balance is manipulated by editing, it's not up to the sound men, necessarily, how to do the manipulation. Doesn't the conductor have the last word anyway? |
This depends on how the music was recorded.
Was the whole orchestra recorded together? Or were various sections recorded separately then their tracks combined and balanced for the final product? _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Speed Veteran Member
Joined: 13 May 2015 Posts: 295 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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My son, who works in musical theatre on Broadway, tells me that as far as the live show goes, the choreographer has the final word on tempo on the dance numbers. I presume that is inapplicable to a studio recording, though.
Take care,
Marc Speed |
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Jason Rogers Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2021 Posts: 101 Location: Salisbury, MD
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:37 pm Post subject: Spielberg West Side Story |
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Gottfried Reiche wrote: | Daniel Barenboim wrote: | Just here to say the "good old days" are highly overrated. The level of playing today is much higher.
DB |
Absolutely. I always chuckle when folks reference Bud with how to play an orchestral excerpt. Bud was no doubt a master, and pretty much the dean of American Orchestral Trumpet Playing. But nobody plays like that anymore. Nobody can win a job playing like that. Nobody can keep a job playing like that. It's simply outdated. |
Gottfried Reiche does that mean you play better than Herseth? Please share the name of your orchestra. Performing in this day and time in a professional ensemble should be something we all embrace, share and live to be proud of. Please don't hide behind a pseudonym. Share with us examples of your playing. _________________ Martin Committee 1954
Benge
Bach Stradivarius
Schilke
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1102 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Speed wrote: | My son, who works in musical theatre on Broadway, tells me that as far as the live show goes, the choreographer has the final word on tempo on the dance numbers. I presume that is inapplicable to a studio recording, though.
Take care,
Marc Speed |
If there is dancing in the film, it still has to synch with the music. I would imagine that even in the case of films, musical numbers that involve dancing on screen are still controlled by choreography. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Heim Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2013 Posts: 181
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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Spielberg West Side Story |
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tptptp wrote: | TMT wrote: | Wayne Bergeron comes in on the solo with his trademark shake a la Maynard. |
Better than Maynard, to my ears. |
Maybe this would help?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19hDLDvnfJQ&t=6s |
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