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adagiotrumpet
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 Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Nonprokingdom wrote: | | Gottfried Reiche wrote: | | Fuzzy Dunlop wrote: | | Did Gottfried Reiche really just say Bud Herseth wouldn’t be able to hold down an orchestra job in 2021? |
I said what I said. I doubt any in the biz would disagree with me. |
I doubt most people in “the biz” would agree with you. While I agree that the level is far better now than ever, no one is able/allowed to do what Herseth did.
Most people at the top level of “the biz” know the tremendous work load and demands that come with that type of job. Bud was playing better in his late 60s than most do in their 30s-40s. You really think he was so one dimensional that he wouldn’t be able to adapt to or even codify current trends?
To claim Bud couldn’t hold down a job in todays scene is just plain ignorant. We aren’t speculating about someone that was an inconsistent, mediocre player… |
I have tried to refrain from commenting on Gottfried Reiche's comments but I can't stay quiet any longer. I have to agree with Nonprokindom's observations wholeheartedly.
First of all, have styles of playing changed over the years? Probably. Is it better now than before? I guess it depends on your point of view and is a topic for another thread.
Should we even be discussing this in this thread? I don't think so, but Gottfried Reiche chose to toss in this hand grenade completely out of left field.
The question I have is why he chose to do this in the first place. The only conclusion I can come up with is his need to demonstrate his total ignorance and/or introduce a completely outlandish observation just to get a rise out of those of us that are willing to read it. As my Dad use to say, some people aren't happy unless they are miserable.
And now back to the "mediocrity" of the soundtrack to Spielberg's West Side Story. Man, this is a tough crowd. |
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Gottfried Reiche
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:44 am Post subject: |
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It would benefit everyone to go back and read what I actually said.
I cast no shade on my former teacher.
I simply said that you can no longer do the job the way that he did it. And he did it so damn well for so long.
I sit on audition committees. The rules of the game are quite different these days. It's a fact. |
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Gottfried Reiche
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| And yes. He was a great teacher. |
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Nonprokingdom
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Joined: 18 Nov 2021
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:34 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Gottfried Reiche"]It would benefit everyone to go back and read what I actually said.
I cast no shade on my former teacher.
I simply said that you can no longer do the job the way that he did it. And he did it so damn well for so long.
I sit on audition committees. The rules of the game are quite different these days. It's a fact.[/quote]
You held pretty firm in your statements before you were called out, which is fine.
However, I also sit on audition committees as well and believe you are totally incorrect in your assessment, still.
The rules of the game are only different in your perception. Rules are the same, different expectations, fact. |
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Irving
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 7:01 am Post subject: |
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What Herr Reich says about Herseth can be applied to many players who played first trumpet in American symphony orchestras. Voisin, Ghitalla, Vacchiano, Schleuter, Gil Johnson, Kaderabek. All amazing players. But it is a moot point. Their styles were very solistic, and each one had their own. The past is the past. You can't even find players who played like they did in the past. Not in classical music or jazz. So what? While you might think that players are more technically proficient, I don't think that they have the freedom to play as they might like to. The orchestral world is like being in a corporation. No red suits permitted. Conform or out you go.
Another point is that you don't play auditions like you play on the job. Especially in loud passages. You might need to play extremely loudly on the job whereas in an audition that will likely not impress the committee. I'm sure our predecessors knew this.
Now listen to this recording of Herseth playing in 1963 and tell me that playing like that wouldn't get him a job today. A live recording of Hindemith's Concert Music for Strings and Brass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cu74HDLL0g |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:04 am Post subject: |
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I took a wrong turn, sorry. I thought this thread was about West Side Story, LOL,
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trahmput
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:11 am Post subject: |
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If you put Hooten, Sachs, Rolfs, Martin, Inouye, Hughes, McCandles, Esteban, and other principals from today side by side you would find a wide variety of sounds, styles, and personalities on their instruments, just as you would find with the “old school” fellas. The biggest reason it seems like everyone sounds the same these days is because 1) people are generally better/more consistent on their instruments, and the BIG #2 reason) the recording engineers who are over producing, auto tuning (yes really), and homogenizing the recording sound.
But go listen to the recent BSO recordings of Shostakovich, or the recent CSO recordings, or the recent NYP recordings, or Cleveland, or SFS, and tell me those principal players all sound the same….which of course would expose you as having no idea what you are talking about |
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adagiotrumpet
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| Gottfried Reiche wrote: | | It would benefit everyone to go back and read what I actually said.. |
Actually, I did, and I quote: "Nobody can win a job playing like that," Nobody can keep a job playing like that."
So please enlighten us. Please elaborate as to why Bud Herseth would be unemployed as an orchestral trumpet player in 2021. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| trahmput wrote: | | . . . people are generally better/more consistent on their instruments |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Vin DiBona wrote: |
Bernstein did not want Carrera as Tony. Wrong accent for the role and he had considerable trouble with the timing of the songs he sang.
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Who thought it was a good idea to have Carreras do that part? He has no feel for the rhythm and his accent sounds ridiculous.
| kehaulani wrote: | Frankly, I don't call Maynard's notes "shake". I call them nanny goats . You should've heard him in his prime. As a matter of fact, I don't believe I ever heard him "shake" during those times.
Not to be misunderstood, I think Maynard has contributed immensely to jazz. He's a well-deserved legend. Ever stop to think how few full-time big bands exist? I am in awe of Maynard's staying power.
I don't know how many of our younger players know of Maynard's musicianship. I've heard him match solos with Clifford Bown and hold his own. But that was pre "shake" days. |
Yeah, it's a shame he came to constantly use that as a crutch. The first time I heard Maynard was on a tv show in his shades and jumpsuit era and he was doing that shake-wail all the time and I thought it was offputting - I knew nothing about his earlier days and how different a player he had been.
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trickg
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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I just listened to this new version and listened to the 1961 movie recording.
The very first thing that jumped out at me was the tempo - it's significantly different. I got out my Yamaha Clickstation and tapped it off to see just how big of a difference it was.
1961 - hovered right around 115 bpm, sometimes as slow as 113.
2021 - trucking along at around 125 bpm - sometimes as high as 127, but often settles and sticks at 126.
As a drummer I can tell you that this is HUGE. I can also tell you that for some songs, they just lay better in certain tempo ranges, and a shift as little as 5 bpm can make a huge difference. There have been times playing in the worship band where we'll bump the tempo up or down by as little as 2-3 bpm and the impact on the tune is significant.
For me, I think that the tempo for 1961 feels better - the mambo grooves better at the more relaxed tempo, and it allows for the feel of being both loose and tight at the same time. 2021 doesn't allow for that - it HAS to be tight at 126 bmp.
I also listened to both trumpet solos - you can't knock Pete Candoli at all, and the difference in the sound is the difference in how they were mixed. Wayne sounds every bit as big as Pete, but he's mixed in a much more bright and focused way IMO.
On balance...I think I prefer the 1961 recording. I think it lays and grooves better. The 2021 recording sounds frenetic.
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Heim
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Joined: 14 Dec 2013
Posts: 181
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| mm55 wrote: | | Fuzzy Dunlop wrote: | | Did Gottfried Reiche really just say Bud Herseth wouldn’t be able to hold down an orchestra job in 2021? |
Herr Reiche doesn't even know how to use valves. |
Now that ranks up there with great witticisms of all time! Way to go mm55!
ROFLMFAO |
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Heim
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Joined: 14 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: | | Nonprokingdom wrote: | | Gottfried Reiche wrote: | | Fuzzy Dunlop wrote: | | Did Gottfried Reiche really just say Bud Herseth wouldn’t be able to hold down an orchestra job in 2021? |
I said what I said. I doubt any in the biz would disagree with me. |
I doubt most people in “the biz” would agree with you. While I agree that the level is far better now than ever, no one is able/allowed to do what Herseth did.
Most people at the top level of “the biz” know the tremendous work load and demands that come with that type of job. Bud was playing better in his late 60s than most do in their 30s-40s. You really think he was so one dimensional that he wouldn’t be able to adapt to or even codify current trends?
To claim Bud couldn’t hold down a job in todays scene is just plain ignorant. We aren’t speculating about someone that was an inconsistent, mediocre player… |
I have tried to refrain from commenting on Gottfried Reiche's comments but I can't stay quiet any longer. I have to agree with Nonprokindom's observations wholeheartedly.
First of all, have styles of playing changed over the years? Probably. Is it better now than before? I guess it depends on your point of view and is a topic for another thread.
Should we even be discussing this in this thread? I don't think so, but Gottfried Reiche chose to toss in this hand grenade completely out of left field.
The question I have is why he chose to do this in the first place. The only conclusion I can come up with is his need to demonstrate his total ignorance and/or introduce a completely outlandish observation just to get a rise out of those of us that are willing to read it. As my Dad use to say, some people aren't happy unless they are miserable.
And now back to the "mediocrity" of the soundtrack to Spielberg's West Side Story. Man, this is a tough crowd. |
Many playing styles that I hear today are bloody boring! I'd rather listen to an in tune college pep band.
p.s. Good luck finding one. They do exist though. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Dangerous at this point, to get in the middle, but what does today's performances being boring have to do with Bud Herseth's abilities?
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
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adagiotrumpet
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | Dangerous at this point, to get in the middle, but what does today's performances being boring have to do with Bud Herseth's abilities? |
Thank you. It took me four paragraphs to say basically the same thing. You were much more to the point. |
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wilder
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Location: NYC
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Have not been here in a long time. My New Years gig got cancelled. All I can say is this is amazing. And Happy New Year! jw |
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Denny Schreffler
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| MrClean wrote: | | *None* of the voices were right for the Bernstein project. They’re supposed to be teenagers. It’s ridiculous. |
There was an undercurrent of opinion after the project was released that Bernstein was pleading his case for having WSS accepted into the operatic canon in the way that Porgy and Bess had begun life on Broadway before being “elevated.”
—Denny |
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Heim
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | Dangerous at this point, to get in the middle, but what does today's performances being boring have to do with Bud Herseth's abilities? |
The fact that GR claims that Herseth couldn't hold a job today playing as he did has a lot to do with my statement. |
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homebilly
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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it also seems to me that they opened up the solo .......
a bunch!
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Daniel Barenboim
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Heim"][quote="kehaulani"]Dangerous at this point, to get in the middle, but what does today's performances being boring have to do with Bud Herseth's abilities?[/
Edit
DB
Last edited by Daniel Barenboim on Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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