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Goby
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017
Posts: 652
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 Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Clay has a point. Someone would definitely pay $1500-2000 for that Martin as-is. You could sink $2k into it to have it restored, and you could probably sell it for $5k afterwards. The profit would be slightly larger when selling the restored horn, but you take on the financial risk of having $2k tied up in a horn, and the risk that something goes sideways in the restoration (red rot becomes a pin hole, split seam, crack in the metal on a repaired dent, etc.)
The market for L bore Committees is extremely hot right now, so someone will be willing to pay at least $1500 for that horn so they can fix it up. For a $20 horn, you’re coming out ahead either way, but I would agree that it’s makes more sense financially to sell it as-is and let someone else take it on as a project. |
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Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: To restore or not to restore......that is the question. |
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| Ghostly Bugler wrote: | Through a strange quirk of fate, and my fascination for junk shops, I am in (legal) possession of an Olds French Model (ser. no.1741) and a Martin Committee (sr. no 194154) with the magic '3' above the ser. no.
The Olds just looks....well....old. The Martin appears to have survived a plane crash. What should I avoid doing?
The Martin is still playable and you can hear the 'smoke' that so many refer to. The Olds sounds great and the compression is amazing.
I'm not a 'trumpet player', just a person who can get it to work convincingly enough. I'm a writer/arranger who tries to get his head around what the real musicians have to do.
I'm in the UK and talking to a major restorer in the North west.
What do you reckon? |
Lucky you in the UK 😁 Leigh McKinney at Eclipse is in UK and he is the best I know of. Ask him about your issue I promise you will get an honest opinion an estimate and the only guy I trust with that type work. Tell him I referred you.
Rod |
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Dave_3
Regular Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2020
Posts: 64
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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If you just want to flip it for a profit, then perhaps selling it as is, is the way to go.
But, if I could have a fully restored (by a professional....Charlie Melk, etc.) Committee for a mere $2K (I don't have a clue what restoration costs...only going by amounts posted in this thread), I'd do it in a heartbeat. |
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Halflip
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1931
Location: WI
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Ghostly Bugler wrote: | I just don't know- I've sent some pics [to the shop] - so here's where I'm at.
. . .
2. I spend $800 to have a horn that is 95% a rare Martin Committee |
I'm a little concerned about this -- what does 95% mean? Is the shop telling you that they will use some non-Martin parts? Also, $800 seems low given what I've seen in your pictures. Even if the work doesn't include a valve rebuild, that's kind of low if they're including a new lacquer finish. If they deal with any 'red rot', it will likely be via patches (this will definitely lower the value and scare away some potential buyers, especially if the patches are on the bell flare).
This may be unfair, but your shop sounds more and more like a 'refurbishment mill' as opposed to a high-end restorer. They probably do a brisk business processing brass band and school rental instruments. If I'm right, I would advise you that your Martin deserves better.
By the way, you mention compression on the Olds; since you seem to know how to test valve compression, how is it on the Martin?
I am disappointed that no one has yet responded with an opinion on the big spots on the bell visible in your fifth picture. If that's red rot, it may be very hard to remediate in a way that will give you a horn with optimal value in the marketplace. There is a process called "acid-copper" treatment (a kind of copper plating) that fills in small spots of red rot sort of like bondo on a car body, but it doesn't really fully restore the strength of the metal. Bell replacement might be an option -- Jim Becker at Osmun Music in Boston acquired some OEM Martin bells (the 'real deal') some years ago and was offering to 'transplant' them onto those redesigned Leblanc Committees (I have one of these 'transplants') for a fairly low price, but I'm not sure if he has any left.
If you want to flip the horn, I'm inclined to agree with those who say "don't restore -- sell as is". Since you are only into the horn for $20, you will sell it fairly quickly at a good profit. If you restore it properly, I think it will cost you more like $2000, and then you are taking a much bigger gamble -- you might sell the horn at a profit, but it may take a much longer time to find a buyer (I'm a little less sanguine about the current market 'feeding frenzy' for large-bore Martins). If you get a 'bargain' $800 refurbishment, you may have a harder time selling the horn at a good price -- in my opinion, it's the worst of both worlds (nuts like me who collect a lot of horns would rather pay for an unrestored horn and control the restoration process themselves, as opposed to being charged extra for a so-so refurbishment and then paying for a proper restoration on top of it).
Rod Haney made a great suggestion -- consult with Leigh McKinney at Eclipse! I was thinking of him strictly as a specialty brass manufacturer, but he does work on other horns, too. He is definitely an expert 'high-end' brass technician who will be able to give you excellent, honest advice about your horn, as well as 'do it justice' should you decide to restore it. I think his shop is in Dunstable. (One odd note: it looks like his website has been hacked -- all the sub-menus take you to pharmaceutical ads!)
| Ghostly Bugler wrote: | | 4. Am I trading on eveybody's good nature by posting pics of 'The French Model' which has no hint of 'The Red Death' |
Please do post some pics of your Olds! We love to ogle French models.  |
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dr-pepp
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 541
Location: Austin TX
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:23 am Post subject: Re: To restore or not to restore......that is the question. |
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| Ghostly Bugler wrote: | | I am in (legal) possession of an Olds French Model (ser. no.1741) |
Although a large bore Committee will certainly get more attention, I would not dismiss the potential worth of your Olds French model. The Olds Register http://rouses.net/trumpet/theoldsregister.pdf has been inactive for more than a decade, but while active, it did catalog a fair number of early Olds trumpets and cornets. The earliest French model listed in the Olds Register is sn 2210. I have one that is not listed in the Register that is sn 2620. The other French models recorded all begin with "3", so your French model is currently the oldest known. There could certainly be an older one out there is some other thrift shop or in a collection, but I'm certain that there is an Olds collector out there that would be interested in your French model in unrestored condition.
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Clay Collins
Owner, Centex Brass
www.centexbrass.com
also administrator of Olds Central
www.olds-central.com |
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Ghostly Bugler
Regular Member
Joined: 08 Dec 2021
Posts: 28
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Thanks to both Rod Haney and Clay dr-pepp and Halflip I've spoken today with Leigh McKinney by phone and will take the horn to his place for an evaluation.
My reference to 95% was that the trigger for the third valve tuning slide is missing and there is no case. But that's all.
My mention of compression came from the fact that, compared to every cheapy I've blown or owned in the past, the tuning slides seem 'gripped' when I try to move them - depress the valve and they move very freely. Having read the following :
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1589079
I am convinced that this is yet another subject about which I know nothing. Yet.... when I've moved the slides and then depress the valve, there's an audible release.
scottfsmith the shepherds crook does look cornet-ish from certain angles, but it is the normal trumpet shape that must have been badly bent when the meteorite hit!
Gentlemen - thanks again. Pics of the French Model to follow. |
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Ghostly Bugler
Regular Member
Joined: 08 Dec 2021
Posts: 28
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Some vintage 'Oo-la-la' for Halflip & dr-pepp
Last edited by Ghostly Bugler on Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Halflip
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1931
Location: WI
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Oo-la-la indeed! VERY nice!
Your Olds is a horn that only needs a gentle cleaning, maybe removal of a few of the major dents, replacement of corks and felt pads (with a valve alignment), and other minor maintenance (unless there's something hidden that the pictures aren't showing).
This is one of those horns where the finish as-is will actually be a plus for many potential buyers. |
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dr-pepp
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 541
Location: Austin TX
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Very nice. I agree that just some minor cleanup and dent work is all that is needed. The dent in the leadpipe might be difficult to remove. This pipe can be replaced, but it will play fine as it is. The top and bottom caps on early Olds horns are not all that easy to replace with exact matches and the top caps, bottom caps and finger buttons all look to be in very good condition. That is normally not the case for a 85+ year old horn. Your horn has the often missing 3rd slide stop rod or "C# adjuster". The 1st slide push rod is missing and the third slide push rod is a nickel silver replacement, but both these brass push rods are generally available. Obviously we can't see the valve pistons or the inside of the slide tubes, but it appears you have a excellent vintage Olds French model trumpet.
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Clay Collins
Owner, Centex Brass
www.centexbrass.com
also administrator of Olds Central
www.olds-central.com |
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trickg
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5683
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding those horns, I wouldn't restore them, but I'd have them completely and fully checked, repaired, and cleaned by a reputable shop. Make them perfectly playable, but don't restore them to a like-new condition.
It would be akin to taking an old Winchester rifle, pre-1899, and doing a full restoration because of some cosmetic blemishes. No matter what, you're going to lose value, and at worst, the wrong shop can bungle it to a point where it's no longer even what it once was.
That's my 2 cents on it.
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Patrick Gleason
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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deleted_user_687c31b
New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| Ghostly Bugler wrote: | | Some vintage 'Oo-la-la' for Halflip & dr-pepp |
Dang, that thing looks nice! |
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Halflip
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1931
Location: WI
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Ghostly Bugler wrote: | | Thanks to both Rod Haney and Clay dr-pepp and Halflip I've spoken today with Leigh McKinney by phone and will take the horn to his place for an evaluation. |
Just curious -- assuming you've had the chance to visit his shop, what did Leigh have to say about your Committee? |
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Ghostly Bugler
Regular Member
Joined: 08 Dec 2021
Posts: 28
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: |
Just curious -- assuming you've had the chance to visit his shop, what did Leigh have to say about your Committee? |
We had a good phone conversation, checked our diaries and agreed to meet up early January. He is about 1.5 hr drive from me. He's not interested in pictures, just wants to see the horn.
Since we last 'spoke' I took it to an orchestral concert I was compéring in North London and to let one of the pros have a blow (an old friend). He couldn't believe how good it sounded. He did a quick compression check by removing the 1valve slide - I held the spit-trap closed and his eyeballs nearly popped out with the effort!
I'm now playing it every day - the valves are getting faster the more it plays - I've discovered what' loose slotting' means by A/B'ing it with the Olds.
I'll keep you up to date - and thanks again for such helpful advice. Have a great Christmas - More news in January.
Cheers
David
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1934 Olds French Model - ser no: 1741
1926 Boosey & Co. 'Solbron' |
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Halflip
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1931
Location: WI
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| Ghostly Bugler wrote: | | Have a great Christmas - More news in January |
Merry Christmas to you as well (and a Happy New Year too)! |
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Ghostly Bugler
Regular Member
Joined: 08 Dec 2021
Posts: 28
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | | Ghostly Bugler wrote: | | Thanks to both Rod Haney and Clay dr-pepp and Halflip I've spoken today with Leigh McKinney by phone and will take the horn to his place for an evaluation. |
Just curious -- assuming you've had the chance to visit his shop, what did Leigh have to say about your Committee? |
I dropped it off at Leigh's this morning - I won't describe his reaction. The gave the bell a few secs of magic and the engraving came up like new - and it is deep cut. If you look at his face book page you'll see what he's doing to another 'horn of interest' that he said was in a worse state than mine.
Leigh starts work on the Martin asap and we'll take it from there. He's going to post progress pics on Facebook. As you said, the Olds French Model needs nothing doing to it and that was Leigh's take on it too. The dings I can live with at the mo' and again he couldn't believe what good shape it was in overall.
Thanks again for such good advice.
Cheers
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1934 Olds French Model - ser no: 1741
1926 Boosey & Co. 'Solbron' |
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mike ansberry
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Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Posts: 1607
Location: Clarksville, Tn
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:26 am Post subject: |
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From what I can see the mouthpipe looks undamaged. That is a big deal. Dents and repaired dents in the mouthpipe can really mess up the intonation and blow of the horn. The bell is kinda beat up, but it looks like there are not tears or holes. The brass will be stretched after repairing the deep dents, but that will just be cosmetic. The bell is repairable. If the valves are in good shape and the mouthpipe is in good shape, it shouldn't be crazy expensive to put it into good playing condition and decent cosmetic shape.
Red rot on a bell is really unusual. I have never seen any real red rot on a bell and I've been repairing horns since 1976. I am pretty sure it is just tarnish or maybe pitting on the outside of the bell.
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Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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Ghostly Bugler
Regular Member
Joined: 08 Dec 2021
Posts: 28
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| mike ansberry wrote: | From what I can see the mouthpipe looks undamaged. That is a big deal. The bell is repairable. If the valves are in good shape and the mouthpipe is in good shape, it shouldn't be crazy expensive to put it into good playing condition and decent cosmetic shape.
Red rot on a bell is really unusual. I have never seen any real red rot on a bell and I've been repairing horns since 1976. I am pretty sure it is just tarnish or maybe pitting on the outside of the bell. |
And you are 100% Correct. The Bell (according to Leigh) is fine (much to my relief) - the valve block has come through the plane -crash unscathed. It seems it is just a matter of restoring the horn to the shape and proportions Martin originally intended.
I'm going to sell it as I can't justify keeping a horn like this. It needs to be in the hands of somebody who is going to be challenged by it. BUT...I've played it (as often as I could over the past three months) and it is truly the 'Bonny Rait' of Horns.- Smoky or what!
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1934 Olds French Model - ser no: 1741
1926 Boosey & Co. 'Solbron' |
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Ghostly Bugler
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Joined: 08 Dec 2021
Posts: 28
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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Leigh McKinney has nearly finished the repair - I'll get to see what it looks like 'raw' tomorrow. Doubt I'll sleep much tonight.
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1934 Olds French Model - ser no: 1741
1926 Boosey & Co. 'Solbron' |
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TKSop
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014
Posts: 1735
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: To restore or not to restore......that is the question. |
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| Ghostly Bugler wrote: |
I'm in the UK and talking to a major restorer in the North west.
What do you reckon? |
I reckon if you're going to get it restored, you send it to the best - do it once, do it right...
Fortunately, having read the rest of the thread, you've done exactly that (a relief as there's at least one repairer/overhauler in the North West I'd avoid like the plague - it's astonishing to me how certain shops get good or even great reputations!!).
Funny enough, I actually spent a few hours at Leigh's whilst he was working on this - a more thorough job you could not hope to see, you'll have a real treat waiting for you and no mistake. |
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Ghostly Bugler
Regular Member
Joined: 08 Dec 2021
Posts: 28
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: To restore or not to restore......that is the question. |
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| TKSop wrote: |
Funny enough, I actually spent a few hours at Leigh's whilst he was working on this - a more thorough job you could not hope to see, you'll have a real treat waiting for you and no mistake. |
The pics look SEN....SA.....TION.....AL !!
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1934 Olds French Model - ser no: 1741
1926 Boosey & Co. 'Solbron' |
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