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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:35 pm Post subject: Who does the best vintage trumpet/cornet restoration? |
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There is a specific King cornet I am looking for and they are quite hard to find. I am looking for a H.N. White made silversonic or silver tone master model with e 1st trigger and third ring with micro tuner. Id prefer a silver leadpipe as well. They are extremely hard to find and I think i found one on ebay but it is in really rough shape and needs restoration.
Guy is priced high on the horn and i am trying to talk him down. After restoration I would be comfortable being in the 2k ball park to 2200 final cost maybve a little more.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/165105149502?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055359.m2763.l2648
Who does the best vintage restorations and if I purchased this would be able to get it in pretty much brand new condition? _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger
Last edited by chef8489 on Mon Dec 27, 2021 2:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ohiotpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2008 Posts: 988
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Try Kevin Powers
Michigan Musical Instrument Repair
3151 N. Custer St., Monroe, MI 48162
734-242-4914
I've seen a few of his which look brand after he was done. _________________ -fred
Lots of horns available to try and buy (or just try) in the Florida Treasure Coast area (Especially Kanstul trumpets) - PM if you'd like to stop by. |
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Beyond16 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2020 Posts: 220 Location: Texas Gulf Coast
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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That one doesn't look that rough. Based on the button style, it looks like the newer style valves, which have external valve springs. I have 2 Silver Sonic cornets and one Silver Tone. None have sterling lead pipe, just the sterling bell. No triggers on mine either. This ebay horn looks like it still has the lacquer on the bell. I have a 1940 SilverTone with original lacquer. By the way, I weighed the bell on 1951 model, and it's 252g. So there's close to $200 in silver even as scrap.
I find with both Olds and King, people put a price premium on the older models (pre 1950 or so). I prefer the newer models because both Olds and King improved their valve design at some point. Olds went to the improved valve guide design, and King switched to external valve springs. |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Beyond16 wrote: | That one doesn't look that rough. Based on the button style, it looks like the newer style valves, which have external valve springs. I have 2 Silver Sonic cornets and one Silver Tone. None have sterling lead pipe, just the sterling bell. No triggers on mine either. This ebay horn looks like it still has the lacquer on the bell. I have a 1940 SilverTone with original lacquer. By the way, I weighed the bell on 1951 model, and it's 252g. So there's close to $200 in silver even as scrap.
I find with both Olds and King, people put a price premium on the older models (pre 1950 or so). I prefer the newer models because both Olds and King improved their valve design at some point. Olds went to the improved valve guide design, and King switched to external valve springs. |
Im thinking its in the early to mid 60s. It is still a H.N. White horn. it would go perfect with my Super 20 I have. Wish he had a pic of the valves so I could see how much work they needed. I know all the lacquer needs to be stripped at a minimum and some more work needs to be done to it and needs a refinish. From the pics the leadpipe is different color and might be one of the ones with sterling leadpipe. Hard to tell. I know they were not that common but they were out there.
What do you guys actually think that horn is worth in that condition? I am thinking 5-600.00 is a reasonable price. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Beyond16 wrote: | That one doesn't look that rough. Based on the button style, it looks like the newer style valves, which have external valve springs. I have 2 Silver Sonic cornets and one Silver Tone. None have sterling lead pipe, just the sterling bell. No triggers on mine either. This ebay horn looks like it still has the lacquer on the bell. I have a 1940 SilverTone with original lacquer. By the way, I weighed the bell on 1951 model, and it's 252g. So there's close to $200 in silver even as scrap.
I find with both Olds and King, people put a price premium on the older models (pre 1950 or so). I prefer the newer models because both Olds and King improved their valve design at some point. Olds went to the improved valve guide design, and King switched to external valve springs. |
Showing my ignorance here, but what are “external valve springs”? I am familiar with bottom and top sprung valves, but not external. |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | Beyond16 wrote: | That one doesn't look that rough. Based on the button style, it looks like the newer style valves, which have external valve springs. I have 2 Silver Sonic cornets and one Silver Tone. None have sterling lead pipe, just the sterling bell. No triggers on mine either. This ebay horn looks like it still has the lacquer on the bell. I have a 1940 SilverTone with original lacquer. By the way, I weighed the bell on 1951 model, and it's 252g. So there's close to $200 in silver even as scrap.
I find with both Olds and King, people put a price premium on the older models (pre 1950 or so). I prefer the newer models because both Olds and King improved their valve design at some point. Olds went to the improved valve guide design, and King switched to external valve springs. |
Showing my ignorance here, but what are “external valve springs”? I am familiar with bottom and top sprung valves, but not external. |
It's where the springs are on the outside of the piston vs inside like bach valves. Here are the valve off my super 20.
_________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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To answer the title question: in your part of the country the best is Rich Ita in Marrietta GA. ("Brass Instrument Workshop").
Silvertone and Silversonic master/Super-20 cornets over the last 2 years have been selling in a wide range from $700 to $1400. As some of the best were the last in my opinion, and the condition looks pretty good, I would say the price is not out of line.
The catalog does not mention the leadpipe material, and if it were available in sterling, one would think that would be promoted on the "options" list. As the lacquer is largely missing but the exposed metal is not black, I suspect the leadpipe is nickel or nickel plated brass. (Of course, its hard to tell from pictures) _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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chef8489 wrote: | LittleRusty wrote: | Beyond16 wrote: | That one doesn't look that rough. Based on the button style, it looks like the newer style valves, which have external valve springs. I have 2 Silver Sonic cornets and one Silver Tone. None have sterling lead pipe, just the sterling bell. No triggers on mine either. This ebay horn looks like it still has the lacquer on the bell. I have a 1940 SilverTone with original lacquer. By the way, I weighed the bell on 1951 model, and it's 252g. So there's close to $200 in silver even as scrap.
I find with both Olds and King, people put a price premium on the older models (pre 1950 or so). I prefer the newer models because both Olds and King improved their valve design at some point. Olds went to the improved valve guide design, and King switched to external valve springs. |
Showing my ignorance here, but what are “external valve springs”? I am familiar with bottom and top sprung valves, but not external. |
It's where the springs are on the outside of the piston vs inside like bach valves. Here are the valve off my super 20.
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I considered that possibility but wanted better info than my own guess.
Thanks. |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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[/img]="OldSchoolEuph"]To answer the title question: in your part of the country the best is Rich Ita in Marrietta GA. ("Brass Instrument Workshop").
Silvertone and Silversonic master/Super-20 cornets over the last 2 years have been selling in a wide range from $700 to $1400. As some of the best were the last in my opinion, and the condition looks pretty good, I would say the price is not out of line.
The catalog does not mention the leadpipe material, and if it were available in sterling, one would think that would be promoted on the "options" list. As the lacquer is largely missing but the exposed metal is not black, I suspect the leadpipe is nickel or nickel plated brass. (Of course, its hard to tell from pictures)[/quote]
I have seen 5 examples of silversonic cornets with sterling leadpipes over the years. Chris had 2, Johnathan Milam had one and I saw 2 back in Texas.
im not as worried about the srerling leadpip as i am with the trigger and micro adjustment and it being a H.N white horn vs a kmi horn.
so the cost of that horn at say 850.00 plus cost of full restoration would be worth it to you? im thinking restoration probably being min of 1k to 1500. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Ahh, yes, that's where things get messy. Cost to acquire a quality horn plus cost to put in better than new condition will always seriously surpass resale value. If looking to flip a horn, this is a poor choice. If looking for an excellent tool for making music, these are great cornets.
The leadpipe should be fine either way. In my experience, the overtones added by silver or by nickel pipes tend to be pretty similar. (Bells are a different story) _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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receiving it. forward to receiving it.t.where things get messy. Cost to acquire a quality horn plus cost to put in better than new condition will always seriously surpass resale value. If looking to flip a horn, this is a poor choice. If looking for an excellent tool for making music, these are great cornets.
The leadpipe should be fine either way. In my experience, the overtones added by silver or by nickel pipes tend to be pretty similar. (Bells are a different story)[/quote]
Not looking at flipping the horn looking to restor it for my collection so I can play it and keep it. I want it alongside my 65 super 20 silversonic trumpet with a trigger and my 66 silver flair. I'm probably selling my Bach as I barely use it.
BTW my mother bought me your book for Christmas off amazon. Im looking forward to receiving it. I am sure it is great. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1925 Location: WI
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:29 pm Post subject: Re: Who does the best vintage trumpet restoration? |
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chef8489 wrote: | Who does the best vintage restorations and if I purchased this would be able to get it in pretty much brand new condition? |
Charlie Melk is also close to you in Griffin, Georgia (just outside of Atlanta). He is a third-generation master brass technician. In my collection of over 50 horns, he has restored the great majority of them. I would rank him better than or equal to anyone else in the country (and maybe the world). I think many on this forum would agree.
Charlie has been perfecting his lacquering technique for decades now; the results he gets are pretty amazing. I think he does valve fitting in-house too, now that Anderson's master fitter retired (Charlie still sends valves to Anderson for plating, though). |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks I sent off an email both th Charlie Melk and to Rich about my idea to see what they say. I have someone that is really interested in my Bach 72 trumpet but I'll be gone for a month and mentioned my interest in this cornet, so maybe something will happen after Christmas. Either I'll sell my Bach to him and get the cornet, or he will but the cornet and I'll knock a few hundred off the price of the Bach and work our a trade. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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total when all said and done.ler. He is too scared to remove the valves to look at them and inform me what condition they are in. The leadpipe is not brass colored which is good, so hopefully either sterling or nickle silver. So I'd be going in completely blind about the valves and expecting a complete rebuild. So most likely we are at 1500+ for a full restoration. So somewhere around 2500 total when all said and done. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 692 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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As I have understood, only the Super 20 had the silver colored leadpipe. I am not sure but at least some of those pipes were nickel. Also, the Super 20 had the rolled bell rim while the Master and Silversonic (non Super 20) had the diamond in cross section rim, or a rare few had rimless bells a la the Conn Vocabell horns. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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huntman10 wrote: | As I have understood, only the Super 20 had the silver colored leadpipe. I am not sure but at least some of those pipes were nickel. |
Yes and by the serial number I was given I would date this horn to 1965. So it most like is a Super 20 and I would be fine with nickle silver leadpipe. My main priorities is the bell and the trigger. here is a 1965 that sold on the HN white website from 1965 but didnt have the trigger.
_________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Sold MY Bach 72 for 1600. I can start to move forward on this once payment clears.
This is what Charlie Melk said.
I’d have to see it for sure, but it looks like something that I could do for about $800.00.
Couple notes.
1. If the valves are chrome plated, you may be looking at rebuilding them.
Chrome plated valves is typical on these Kings cornets. If they work good and are fit good, then they may be OK.
If they have any issues with how the perform or any plating issues, then they need rebuilding.
That adds $650.00 to the job.
2. I typically recommend to not lacquer the bell. It is sterling silver and lacquer does not adhere very well.
Id expect Rich to be somewhere along those lines as well. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9365 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Check with Southeastern Musical Services in Huntsville, Alabama. They do great work at very reasonable prices. Great attention to detail, minimal buffing so the integrity of the instrument is maintained. Here’s a 1962 Conn they overhauled for me. They’ve also restored a 1955 Mt. Vernon Strad and a 1970 Olds L-12 flugelhorn for me.
_________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham
Last edited by Dale Proctor on Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 858 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | Check with Southeastern Musical Services in Huntsville, Alabama. They do great work at very reasonable prices. |
Ill drop them a line as well.
I want this horn the best possible to new as can be. I know the case needs work as well and wondering who can work on the case as well. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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Yamahaguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992
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Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 8:20 am Post subject: |
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chef8489 wrote: | I want this horn the best possible to new as can be. I know the case needs work as well and wondering who can work on the case as well. | You can't go wrong with Charlie...and check with your local dry cleaners-
one local business repaired the case latches and interior that was musty. |
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