1952 Olds Ambassador cornet - 1st valve casing size larger

Rocketman · New Member Joined: 24 Jan 2022 Posts: 8

So I found a cornet at a local resale shop covered in gray paint for $4.00. Guess it was going to be used as an art piece. Got it home and started removing the paint with alcohol, and found the SN - 70230 - and figured from SN lists on line it is around 1952. The horn is in very good shape, bell is perfect, only found a couple of teensy dents and a slightly larger dent in the lead pipe. Got some valve oil, and the valves are very smooth. I noticed that the bottom valve cap on the 1st valve was loose, but stuck on, and the hole in the cap was larger than the hole in the other valves caps. Had to use a pair of pliers to remove it because it obviously was bent in on the edges to get it to at least not fall off.

So I tried to put one of the caps from the other valves on and it was miles from fitting. Got a digital caliper yesterday. and inside diameter of valves 2 & 3 at the bottom where the caps go is 16.9 mm. The same measurement on valve 1 is 17.8! I can not see where any mod work was done - the valve numbers on the valve casings are the same identical font on all 3 and all 3 valves have SNs matching the horn. The valve casing is too thin to have been bored out almost a whole mm. The bottom of the 1st valve is also different from the other three.

I cannot figure out how to upload photos on this forum - let me know and I will upload some.

What is going on with this horn?

Andy Cooper · Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:04 am Post subject:

Just a thought.
1. I assure you if you are willing to spend the money, a good tech can sort this out so that you have three working (if not matching) bottom valve caps.

2. You could just install the two that work, put on a $10 Grime Gutter and play.

Why is the ID of the #1 valve larger than 2 and 3? Sounds like someone balled out the bottom of the casing to fit the non-matching oversized valve cap...

People do odd things to musical instruments that they would never do to their car or even lawnmower. Why I once had a customer who thought he could solder on the key post on his son's sax - with an oxy acetylene torch.

Rocketman · New Member Joined: 24 Jan 2022 Posts: 8

It's a mystery to me! Been conversing with Clay over at Centex Brass and he is stumped also. I was going to take it to a local music store to see if they have any ideas. The valves seem to seal very well. I haven't played yet as I do not have a mouthpiece - was going to get a regular one and use tape to fit to see if I wanted to spend the money on a 70 year old proper mouthpiece.
I'll check out the grime gutter.

Thanx for the comment.

Rocketman · New Member Joined: 24 Jan 2022 Posts: 8

The bottom of the 1st valve is different than 2 & 3. But all have matching SNs. Is there a way to post photos to this forum?

Winghorn · Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:42 am Post subject:

As Andy Cooper suggested, the bottom of the casing may have been stretched out. Have you measured the valves themselves? If the first valve is bigger, perhaps it was re-plated and refitted at some point. This would have left the original serial number intact.

Rocketman · New Member Joined: 24 Jan 2022 Posts: 8

Yes - All 3 pistons are 16.8 mm measured at the bottom.

But why would someone stretch out the valve casing at the bottom?

So I guess no way to upload a picture (since a picture is worth a thousand words and would show what I am tiling about much better)?0

A.N.A.Mendez · Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:10 pm Post subject:

There are special tools to fix this situation. Sounds like someone enlarged the threaded area so the later era cap would fit. The top and bottom caps on Olds trumpets and cornets changed to a larger size about 1954 or so. I'm fairly certain whoever did this to your horn was not a brass tech....

_________________
"There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860

☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚

Rocketman · New Member Joined: 24 Jan 2022 Posts: 8

So I may be able to find a post '54 cap that would fit? The cap that was put on there did NOT fit - it was loose and I noticed someone had bent the edges of the cap in to help it stay on. Can anyone tell me the OD if a post '54 cap please? Mine is 19.3 mm

And thanx SO much for all the commentary. I used to have a '69 Bach Silver Strad I bought new from H&H in Houston back in '69 for $325 through my band director that I played last half of HS. Stupidly, I sold it for about $350 back around '78 still in VG shape. I'm about to retire and want to pick up music again because it is very fulfilling.

Dale Proctor · Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:47 pm Post subject:

To post photos here, you need to first upload them to a photo hosting site. Then you copy and paste the BB code the hosting site generates for your photo into your post here. Yes, it’s a big hassle…

BTW, that cornet will have a non-standard mouthpiece receiver, too. It will be larger than a modern cornet mouthpiece, so they will insert too far and some will bottom out before they seat.
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

Rocketman · New Member Joined: 24 Jan 2022 Posts: 8

Thanx Dale - just to see if it is worth purchasing a period mouthpiece I am just going to use a piece of tape around the mouthpiece shank at first. So what is a good image hosting site? A simple one.

Winghorn · Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:09 pm Post subject:

The horn may have been dropped and the first valve casing pushed in a little bit at the bottom, causing the valve to bind. In an attempt to push the casing back out to round, someone may have forced some sort of rod (broom handle?) in the casing, enlarging it. This can happen, don’t ask me how I know.

Seems more likely than someone enlarging the casing just so the cap would fit.

huntman10 · Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:12 pm Post subject:

For what it is worth, I have 4 of the older wider receiver Olds cornets, and while I have "legit" cornet mouthpieces to fit them, I have found that Jet Tone cornet pieces, as well as some older Holton cornet mouthpieces will seat in the wide Olds receiver, as well as some smaller shank flugelhorn shanks.
_________________
huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

Rwwilson · Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:27 pm Post subject:

I have both a 1953 Olds Recording trumpet and cornet. The bottom valve cap inside diameter on both is about 19.3 mm. I also have a 1956 Super trumpet and a 1962 Recording cornet and their caps are identical to those of 1953 horns. If Olds used smaller caps at one time it was before 1953. The mouthpiece shank that Olds used for cornets prior to 1956, s/n 189,611 is larger than the standard used today. It is close, if not identical, to a fluegelhorn shank. I play my 1953 cornet using mouthpieces I purchased from Curry, via mouthpiece express, with the older Olds shank. You can also sometimes find mouthpieces with the older shank on eBay.

Dale Proctor · Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:36 pm Post subject:

Rocketman · New Member Joined: 24 Jan 2022 Posts: 8

So, some news! Took it to a local music shop and had the tech look at it. She opined that the 1st valve had gotten stuck - and they tried to hammer it out with something from the bottom that not only depressed the normally convex bottom of the valve into a concave surface, but slightly enlarged the bottom of the valve casing at the same time! Made sense! So anyway, they had an F. Schmidt CRM7C mouthpiece on sale for $31 - normally $81 - that fit albeit a bit farther in but didn't bottom out. She also found an old bottom cap that fit, although it is chrome plated (I may grind off the chrome to make it brass again!) I haven't blown a horn in almost 50 years - but I put it to my lips and was astounded as to the fullness and warmth of the sound! Didn't have the blare of a trumpet - very nice sounding horn - now I know why these were so highly prized as an upscale beginner horn!

Got a tune-up kit from 1469music.com I'll be installing once I get all the gray paint off of it. It has some corrosion where the left hand goes but very minimal compared to what I've seen on other similar era horns. I was very lucky and didn't have very acidic sweat so my horns weren't eaten away.

I'll get an account set up at some imaging site so I can upload some pics to show you what I've been trying to explain.
Anyways, thanx for ALL the input from you guys! Been a nice conversation.
Now, if I only had my '69 silver Strad back

JoeLoeffler · Veteran Member Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 244

If the cap is truly chrome and not nickel plated -soak it in muriatic acid for a bit (maybe a couple of hours, it depends on how thick the plating is) and that will strip the plating off nicely. This will only work on chrome. Nickel plating will need a different set of chemicals or electrical removal.

Halflip · Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:21 am Post subject:

Rocketman · New Member Joined: 24 Jan 2022 Posts: 8

JoeLoeffler · Veteran Member Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 244

Chrome has a bit of a bluish cast compared to nickel. If you want to get rid of the plating anyway, the easiest way would be to dump it in the muriatic. If it strips off, it was chrome. If not, nickel plating.