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TerryAndreas Regular Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2021 Posts: 14 Location: Lincoln, UK
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Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:35 pm Post subject: Changing key of instrument during a piece |
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I understand that composers wrote orchestral parts for the trumpet of their choice.
Sibelius wrote parts for Trumpet in F, Mozart for Trumpet in D, Dvorak for Trumpet in E etc.
I imagine that these instruments were the ones used by the orchestral players in the orchestras the composer imagined would play their works. I'm sure Sibelius, for example, preferred the darker sound of the F trumpet.
My question relates to the changing of keys within the work.
In some Wagner music dramas, he asks that the trumpeter to change trumpet during a phrase or section from E to F. In some Borodin it is trumpet in B flat to start then the next section is Trumpet in E and back again. The same happens in Mahler symphonies too.
Was the composer really imagining that each trumpeter in the orchestra would have an array of trumpets surrounding them and would change when asked even when they have only a bar to do so?
I find that hard to believe.
Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter? |
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nltrumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2019 Posts: 206 Location: Washington DC
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:10 am Post subject: |
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Some composers wrote for different keyed instruments expecting the player to change horns/crooks so they could play a larger variety of notes. Other composers like Richard Strauss wrote for trumpets in all kinds of keys mostly because that was the tradition he was trained in, as he knew most trumpeters playing his music would use fully-chromatic instruments. |
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ayryq Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 Posts: 354 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:14 am Post subject: |
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I feel like I read something about this recently but I cannot lay my hands on it right now.
For older stuff (e.g. a Handel oratorio), it certainly was necessary to switch crooks/horns; thus you'll see every movement in the key of C, with only notes in the harmonic series, but with whatever random horn puts the movement in the right key (Trumpet in Db! Trumpet in F#!)
The same basically applies for classical music (e.g. Mozart symphonies) when valves or keys were becoming available but composers weren't interested.
However in the Romantic period, and this is the thing I read that I've been unable to track down, composers wrote for a different keyed trumpet based on what "felt" or "looked" right. So that the notes would stay in the staff, or give a certain affect in the mind of the composer, or something even more esoteric. The trumpet player is not now, nor was ever expected to make all these horn changes, even at the premiere. _________________ Yamaha YTR6345HGS Bb
Bach "Philly" C
Bach 239 Eb/D
DEG Signature 2000 Bb/A picc
Yamaha YTR-9835 Bb/A picc
Yamaha Bobby Shew flugel
Yamaha Neo cornet
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TerryAndreas Regular Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2021 Posts: 14 Location: Lincoln, UK
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Many thanks for the replies.
So the likelihood is that one trumpet (in whatever key the player preferred) was used and the performer transposed where necessary.
The composer simply changed to Trumpet in F/E to keep the notes on the stave.
I was playing Rossini's The Thieving Magpie today and the first half of the piece is Trumpet in A with the second half Trumpet in E. As far as I could see each half contained very similar music - that defies that theory, doesn't it?
I can't believe Rossini really wanted the unique sound of the A Trumpet then the sound of an E Trumpet when it is basically the same style throughout.
Any thoughts? |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:11 am Post subject: |
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TerryAndreas wrote: | ... I was playing Rossini's The Thieving Magpie today and the first half of the piece is Trumpet in A with the second half Trumpet in E. As far as I could see each half contained very similar music - that defies that theory, doesn't it? ... |
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It might have to do with the overall ensemble chord structure for those sections - regardless of trpt playing similar notes.
I don't know if the composer does the detail orchestration. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Ancientram Regular Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2019 Posts: 86 Location: Fairborn OH USA
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:05 pm Post subject: Changing Key in the Middle of a Piece |
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It might be useful for you to think of what composers (like Rossini in Gazza Ladra) did in changing the key i.e., Trumpet in A to Trumpet in E, in terms of the pitches they wanted/needed to fit with the rest of the music. Looking at the score, you'll see the strings etc., are in E for the first half and their key signature changes to G for the second half. I hope this helps a bit and isn't as clear as mud.
I recall reading somewhere that although valve horns were available to Brahms, he much preferred the sound of natural horns and thus, we have his horn parts in several keys. |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Those parts were for specific trumpet keys. A trumpet would have several extra slides or “crooks”that could be quickly changed out. So the rum let key would be switched physically for each section of the piece to match the current key structure. If the keys were changing too fast or to keys where there was not commonly a crook available for that key, then the composer did not write any parts, or just wrote notes that could actually play.
Most of the time they stayed in one crook for a whole movement, and when the keys would change temporarily the trumpet did not get used. For exam;Le the overture to Ruslan by Glinka, the trumpets are in D only. The French horns have parts in D and also in A, and they play in more places. The trumpets and horns lay out completely during the rapid key changes in the little fugue-like sections.
I made a horn player a pretty nice natural horn out a student line king French horn by removing gne valve cluster and replacing with a system of crooks. I made crooks for at least 6 different keys. And was pretty easy to do. He said it played great because apparent,y taking out the valve cluster also removed some acoustic problems. He sounded good on it. Seemed to not have much trouble playing it without valves. French is like that anyway with the partials so close together. Modern trumpet players have way more trouble dealing with those old 19th century long horns cuz the partials are closer together that what we know now. _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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Tony Scodwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:36 pm Post subject: Vacchiano and Miles |
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This is an oft repeated story but worth repeating again.
When Miles went to NYC and enrolled in Julliard his trumpet teacher was William Vacchiano. The first lesson started and Vacchiano said, "this piece is in A and where does that put your trumpet?" Miles looked at him and said, "in the mother %$@*^&@ case.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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TerryAndreas Regular Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2021 Posts: 14 Location: Lincoln, UK
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Many thanks everyone for your replies.
Very interesting.
I found this essay online: https://www.robbstewart.com/f-trumpet-history-part-2
It confirms what you all have said and clears up the situation well - including the Wagner Opera question!
It appears that Wagner was paying homage to Berlioz when he makes the trumpeters change crooks mid-phrase.
Wagner wrote Rienzi for 2 Natural Trumpets and 2 Keyed Trumpets?! Who would have thunk it?
So most orchestral trumpet parts of the 19th Century would have been written for natural trumpets with crook changes. They would have stuck to the overtone series and changed crooks when the key changed - hence The Thieving Magpie conundrum solved.
I'm popping out now to buy a natural trumpet and a shed-load of crooks.
Bye bye everyone |
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ProAm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 949
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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Another point that I believe is true in some cases and may or may not apply to your Magpie example: the part you were looking at could have been a combination into one part from what was originally two parts. It could have been a trumpet in A part and a trumpet in E part that originally was played by two separate players. |
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ProAm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 949
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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I recall reading that at some time in the past composers put a premium on writing scores in ways that minimized the use of ledger lines. Changing the key of the trumpet allowed them to do that. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8335 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | I recall reading that at some time in the past composers put a premium on writing scores in ways that minimized the use of ledger lines. Changing the key of the trumpet allowed them to do that. |
This is definitely true. It's one reason cello and viola have all those damn clefs they use.
The carryover in writing trumpet in various keys carried on longer than the actual usage of trumpets that used crooks to change keys. Composers were still writing that way after the usage of mostly F trumpet was fairly standard and often writing for F trumpet continued after a lot of players played Bb trumpet instead.
Players tend to be out ahead in terms of instrument choice, while composer lag behind in what they write. Composers learn instrumentation from books and teachers that aren't necessarily current. Rimsky-Korsakov's book on instrumentation is still well regarded (and rightly so) and it was written well over a century ago. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1286
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