Joined: 24 Jan 2022 Posts: 27 Location: San Francisco
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:15 pm Post subject: odd embouchure for accessing upper register
I’m a comeback player with a cupid’s bow and have been taking private lessons the past couple of years with slow but steady progress except for my high register. On a typical day I face a barrier starting at G# above the staff. I have a nice resonant tone up to G. But when I get to G#, boom, airball. If reset to an extreme pucker I can get up all the way to high E with a sort of falsetto tone. But if I use that pucker in the lower register it no longer works going back up. So I’ve been experimenting with all sorts of embouchure changes…shifting the mouthpiece up, down, left, right; rolling the lips in, rolling them out; tightening the corners, using less mouthpiece pressure, experimenting with closed and open apertures, directing the airstream upward and downward, pivoting the trumpet up, down, side to side, playing softer as I ascend, and numerous range-building exercises. But the barrier still remains.
This week I discovered a strange embouchure which permits me to play from low F# up to a high E with ease. No barrier! But I’m not sure if I should really use it.
Here’s what I do. I place the mouthpiece maybe 85% on the upper lip and insert the entire upper lip— cupid’s bow and all—into the cup. The lower lip feels like it’s completely outside of the mouthpiece. A mirror shows me it’s not quite that extreme, but almost. The outer mouthpiece edge sits almost on the red of my lower lip. The aperture itself feels like it is composed by upper lip and the inner lower edge of the mouthpiece, with no participation from the lower lip. Almost all the vibration is coming from the red of the upper lip.
It works. But I’m not using it yet as my normal embouchure for fear I’ll have no endurance and overstrain the upper lip. Does anyone really play the trumpet like that? Is it a kosher embouchure?
Thanks,
Erik
Bach "Mariachi" Stradivarius
Bach 1.5B mouthpiece
The aperture itself feels like it is composed by upper lip and the inner lower edge of the mouthpiece, with no participation from the lower lip.
The lower lip is what the top lip should vibrate against, but the lower lip does not usually vibrate much itself, the top lip just open and closes against the low lip.
That said if your Mouthpiece is still outside of the red of the lower lip, it seems unlikely that the top lip would be vibrating against the Mouthpiece cup rather than the lower lip. Playing with 85% top lip is totally fine, heaps of players do that, for many, a higher mouthpiece placement means the top lip is freer to vibrate.
I also don't know what this bit means:
Quote:
insert the entire upper lip— cupid’s bow and all—into the cup
What do you mean by "entire upper lip", do you mean that you normally play with your Mouthpiece sitting on the red of the top lip? If so, a higher placement is definitely better. You should avoid placing the mouthpiece in the red of the top lip. Some folks do, but the sign that it is okay in their case is usually that they straight away can ascend into the upper register fairly easily (albeit with a temporarily weak sound and poor endurance). This doesn't seem like it's the case for you, so you really should move the mouthpiece up.
That said, experimenting is okay, but you should only try one thing at a time.
I would change the placement so its higher on your top lip (60-85% top lip) and play like that until it feels normal. Then in a couple of months time, you might adjust something out, but chances are that's all you need to do, and just practice on it and let it develop for several years.
If you are able to post a picture of your mouthpiece placement while playing, that'd help. Don't need to see you face, just the lips and mouthpiece. Alternatively, just send me a private message with you playing some scales on the new setting and I can tell you if it looks okay.
Usually if it feels good and sounds good it is good.
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 2:42 am Post subject: Re: odd embouchure for accessing upper register
ErikA wrote:
This week I discovered a strange embouchure which permits me to play from low F# up to a high E with ease. No barrier! But I’m not sure if I should really use it.
Here’s what I do. I place the mouthpiece maybe 85% on the upper lip and insert the entire upper lip— cupid’s bow and all—into the cup. The lower lip feels like it’s completely outside of the mouthpiece. A mirror shows me it’s not quite that extreme, but almost. The outer mouthpiece edge sits almost on the red of my lower lip. The aperture itself feels like it is composed by upper lip and the inner lower edge of the mouthpiece, with no participation from the lower lip. Almost all the vibration is coming from the red of the upper lip.
Sounds like a more pronounced version of what I do. For decades I played about 50/50 top and bottom lip, trumpet quite high up.
About three years ago in the midst of a rehearsal I discovered that I could suddenly access the higher range (above High C for me) when holding the trumpet much more towards the floor and shifting the mouthpiece up on the top lip to end up with maybe 70 top lip and 30 bottom lip in the piece.
The fact that (a) there is more of the upper lip in the piece and (b) the upper lip is freer to vibrate by holding the trumpet lower has given me about an added fourth or fifth in range. In concerts I can now very easily play to high C, if warmed up well to high E and at home, on a good day, good warmup, correct stance and air control (!!!) I can get to a high A or Bb (not that I would use that for anything I play - being able to play High E for the duration of a gig would be way enough for me).
So, I can relate to the OP very well. As long as you can hold it up for a gig and don’t hurt yourself, sounds good to me.
I also play bass trumpet that way and the sound with all instruments is much more resonant and attacks are clearer. It’s quite a bit of a practice effort to not fall back into old habits form the last 40 years or so … _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3380 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:42 am Post subject: Re: odd embouchure for accessing upper register
ErikA wrote:
... The outer mouthpiece edge sits almost on the red of my lower lip. The aperture itself feels like it is composed by upper lip and the inner lower edge of the mouthpiece, with no participation from the lower lip. Almost all the vibration is coming from the red of the upper lip. ...
---------------------------------
Do you have any mouthpiece pressure from your lower teeth?
Being able to control and transfer some rim pressure between the upper and lower teeth can be helpful. It can allow less pressure on the upper lip, which enables it to vibrate more easily for high notes.
That mouthpiece setting is not conventional, but apparently it can work for some people - and perhaps limited to specific situations. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 24 Jan 2022 Posts: 27 Location: San Francisco
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:32 am Post subject:
Quote:
Botti
Interesting!
Quote:
What do you mean by "entire upper lip", do you mean that you normally play with your Mouthpiece sitting on the red of the top lip?
No, my normal embouchure is 50/50 with my lips entirely within the mouthpiece, no red showing. (I have very thin lips).
Quote:
If you are able to post a picture of your mouthpiece placement while playing, that'd help
Will post a video once I can stabilize the new embouchure. Notes keep flipping up to higher partials when I ascend. Want to try to get it under control.
Quote:
Do you have any mouthpiece pressure from your lower teeth?
No, just the opposite. Too much pressure on the upper lip/teeth with both embouchures. Need to work on that.
Thanks. This is very reassuring. Right now the new embouchure feels like a jumpy cat. I never know where it's going to land. And even if I do get note placement under control I wonder if I'll still be able to do lip slurs, lip bends, articulation and all the other basics. Perhaps I can learn something from it to help tweak my normal embouchure. I'd like a higher range but not at the cost of control, tone & precision.
Its intent is to identify the basic functions of embouchure - not so much how to precisely DO them, but what basic things need to happen. Using too much upper lip pressure, and/or stretching lips is a common problem - it can be corrected and doesn't necessarily need an 'embouchure change', but perhaps a change in how the existing embouchure is used.
My view is that just about all 'good players' use similar basic embouchure functions (whether they are aware of them or not) - so it can be helpful to know a little about those basics. Even for those players who use an unconventional embouchure, those basic 'what has to happen' functions still apply - and they need to find a way to achieve them.
There's currently a somewhat similar thread here -
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1646808#1646808 _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
So long as the top lip is not vibrating against the cup of the mouthpiece (I highly doubt this is what's happening, but that is what it sounded like you were describing) then what you're doing is totally fine.
Quote:
The aperture itself feels like it is composed by upper lip and the inner lower edge of the mouthpiece, with no participation from the lower lip.
It was only this bit above that raised any red flags, but it might just be the way you're describing things. It's pretty normal for what it 'feels' like to be different to what is actually happening inside the mouthpiece.
Joined: 24 Jan 2022 Posts: 27 Location: San Francisco
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:38 pm Post subject: Embouchure pics
Here are some pics of my current vs new embouchure at this OneDrive link. The two pics to the left are my original embouchure. The two to the right my new, higher one. Looks like my lower lip is not entirely outside of the mouthpiece even though it feels that way. For some reason the link isn't clickable even though the first part thinks it is. You'll have to copy and paste the whole thing.
Sounds a bit like a IIIA/IIIB dilemma, but that's not possible to diagnose in just pictures and you'd want the most experienced possible advice (and a lesson in person or at least by video) to start looking into it properly.
I wouldn't just mess around with this, it could be quite destructive to both old and new embouchure if that's the case (and switching between the two can be nightmarish!).
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3415 Location: Garland, Texas
Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:10 am Post subject: Re: odd embouchure for accessing upper register
ErikA wrote:
I’m a comeback player with a cupid’s bow and have been taking private lessons the past couple of years with slow but steady progress except for my high register. On a typical day I face a barrier starting at G# above the staff. I have a nice resonant tone up to G. But when I get to G#, boom, airball. If reset to an extreme pucker I can get up all the way to high E with a sort of falsetto tone. But if I use that pucker in the lower register it no longer works going back up. So I’ve been experimenting with all sorts of embouchure changes…shifting the mouthpiece up, down, left, right; rolling the lips in, rolling them out; tightening the corners, using less mouthpiece pressure, experimenting with closed and open apertures, directing the airstream upward and downward, pivoting the trumpet up, down, side to side, playing softer as I ascend, and numerous range-building exercises. But the barrier still remains.
This week I discovered a strange embouchure which permits me to play from low F# up to a high E with ease. No barrier! But I’m not sure if I should really use it.
Here’s what I do. I place the mouthpiece maybe 85% on the upper lip and insert the entire upper lip— cupid’s bow and all—into the cup. The lower lip feels like it’s completely outside of the mouthpiece. A mirror shows me it’s not quite that extreme, but almost. The outer mouthpiece edge sits almost on the red of my lower lip. The aperture itself feels like it is composed by upper lip and the inner lower edge of the mouthpiece, with no participation from the lower lip. Almost all the vibration is coming from the red of the upper lip.
It works. But I’m not using it yet as my normal embouchure for fear I’ll have no endurance and overstrain the upper lip. Does anyone really play the trumpet like that? Is it a kosher embouchure?
Looking at your pics, I see that you are an older guy. You probably have a lot of fear based on years of struggle. So you are worried about making a change.
Your new setup is in the red of the bottom lip. A lot of great players use that setup. Jerry Callet talked about that setup extensively in Trumpet Yoga. In The Balanced Embouchure (my book) it is considered a Roll-out setup.
If you were my student, I would advise you to make the change now and not look back. The new setup has more potential, but it will take patience to fine tune the coordination and improve accuracy.
There are exercises in the BE book that you can do to strengthen and stabilize the setup, and speed up the progress.
Joined: 24 Jan 2022 Posts: 27 Location: San Francisco
Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:57 am Post subject:
Thanks Jeff. That fits with what I was concluding. The new embouchure basically pins me into a roll-out position. Even with my old embouchure I found myself re-setting to a pucker to access higher registers. So it makes sense that an embouchure which encourages roll-out might work for me.
I bought your book last year and have been trying the exercises. Roll-in is hard for me, roll-out isn’t.
I appreciate the encouragement. Yes, I’m an older guy but delight in learning new things. And if it’s something you didn’t even know you didn’t know, why that’s the best of all!
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3380 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:31 am Post subject:
Erik, please keep us informed about your results, and what embouchure changes / techniques you find to be most successful. good luck! _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 206 Location: Tulsa, OK
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:05 am Post subject:
Not a joke here. I discovered about the opposite just messing around. I "slid" my TOP lip over the top of the mouthpiece and clamped my bottom lip on the inside of the upper cup of the mouthpiece. G (on the staff) to High E (just above high C) became incredibly easy with no effort. I experimented with mouthpieces from 1 1/2 C Bach to Callet TCE 3 Custom and found the smaller mouthpieces allowed a greater freedom. Again, probably not a sustainable embrochure but I am amazed at how EASY those notes became (especially the High C to High E ) for a player like me who has always struggled with range.
Joined: 31 Mar 2005 Posts: 576 Location: Puerto Rico
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:47 am Post subject:
This topic move me from my retirement.
I have same Erick Barrier at G#. Like him I have try a lot of lip and instrument movements and equipment. Is frustrating, I lost a Job for this weak register and lecture. Well lecture improves but register No.
I can reach Erick pictures.
Interesting to me if I can like Erick Improve.
Erick if its doing well please get advise of a teacher.
Hope all get better and enjoy playing
Felix _________________ Jesus I Trust In You
Joined: 24 Jan 2022 Posts: 27 Location: San Francisco
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 12:37 pm Post subject:
Here's a video of my new embouchure compared to my old one. You'll see it's still unstable and in this clip I had to re-set although I don't always need to. It opens up G# -> high C plus a bit more for me.
A shout-out to Jeff Smiley and his Balanced Embouchure book which is helping me. What I'm also learning with this adjustment is how to create a smaller aperture without closing off the air. Long tones are helping with note centering & tonal quality.
With this embouchure change I'm enjoying my practice again!
New embouchure looks totally fine, and given that it seems to be working quite well with only minimal time spent on it compared to the old embouchure, I wouldn't hesitate personally to spend a month or so playing that way and see what happens. Even the lower register was improved.
Incidentally, the upper register on the first setting is cutting off because there is too much volume for you to support. A mouthpiece like a 1.5B requires quite a lot of support above the staff, a very efficent embouchure, or both. If you spent a bunch of time doing clarke #1 softly, the upper register would start to work, and with energising your air more as you ascend, it would get stronger. But in your case, the easiest thing would be to get less cup volume. Try a Bach 3C for example, and you'll likely find even on your original setting that those notes start to feel accessible. You have plenty of room to downsize in diameter before the rim of the mouthpieces starts impinging on the top lip. Doing so will make your life much easier.
For you, I'd consider trying something around a Bach 5C or the Yamaha Hagstrom mouthpiece. A smaller diameter, a bit less cup volume, but nothing that is going to hinder your development or make you sound bad.
What's great with what you're doing currently is you're not forcing, you're letting the instrument speak, which is really nice to see!
You will want to do a little work on your air support so that you can engage that more as you ascend. My reccomendation here is actually a speech pathology method called "accent breathing":
I've found it very helpful as a way of finding and reminding myself and students how to use breath support when playing. I do a little of it as part of my warm up every day. A lot of opera singers uses it for the same purpose.
Joined: 31 Mar 2005 Posts: 576 Location: Puerto Rico
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:41 pm Post subject:
Dear Eric:
Nice video Your second or best one is what's its called playing outside the red. I see you are moving the air pretty well. Please consider try a little the pistol grip of the left hand Play sit and stand up also. In some days the sound will be improving, the register also get rewarded in more motivation for your practice.
My honors for you and continue on this way.
Thanks for the motivation!!!!!!!!!!! _________________ Jesus I Trust In You
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