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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1810 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:54 pm Post subject: Lip Clamp Question |
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So, I recently bought the BE book, and have been reading and trying out the exercises. I have some uncertainty about the lip clamp exercise - if I'm understanding correctly, both lips should be rolled in towards the teeth with no red showing, and they should both be rolled in against the top teeth. Is that right?
Is the distance between the teeth similar to a normal playing position while doing this? (IE - open a moderate amount, not closed like the Cat Anderson exercise.)
Thanks! |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9089 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2022 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Lip Clamp Question |
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Steve A wrote: | I'm understanding correctly, both lips should be rolled in towards the teeth with no red showing, and they should both be rolled in against the top teeth. Is that right?
Is the distance between the teeth similar to a normal playing position while doing this? (IE - open a moderate amount, not closed like the Cat Anderson exercise.)
Thanks! |
I don't recall him saying that both lips should be against the upper teeth. It's my understanding that this isometric exercise with the lip-to-teeth left in normal position, horizontally.
Again, my understandinf is, "Yes". _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1810 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Lip Clamp Question |
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kehaulani wrote: | Steve A wrote: | I'm understanding correctly, both lips should be rolled in towards the teeth with no red showing, and they should both be rolled in against the top teeth. Is that right?
Is the distance between the teeth similar to a normal playing position while doing this? (IE - open a moderate amount, not closed like the Cat Anderson exercise.)
Thanks! |
I don't recall him saying that both lips should be against the upper teeth. It's my understanding that this isometric exercise with the lip-to-teeth left in normal position, horizontally.
Again, my understandinf is, "Yes". |
Okay, thanks for the directly sourced input. The text in the book is "the Lip Clamp, ..., is a simple rolling in of the lips, slightly above the top teeth opening" (pg. 80), which I understood as being both lips above the opening. (But that's a bit of an odd sensation, so I wanted to be sure.)
Last edited by Steve A on Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9089 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:16 am Post subject: |
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When doing the mouth clamp, I intentionally make a point to keep the embouchure-to-teeth position from getting an automatic reflex that is different than one which I use when playing. Therefore, my teeth-clamp position is not both lips above the mouth opening but even with it.
This would seem to be different to your quote.
If I were you. in this case, I would send Jeff an email with t=your question. He will respond. When he does, please share it with us.
He is trumpetteacher1 on this forum and can be reached by pm. His eMail is trumpetteacher1@aol.com. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
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steve0930 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2018 Posts: 195
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Steve A
Congratulations on starting your BE Adventure. You asked
Quote: | Is the distance between the teeth similar to a normal playing position while doing this? (IE - open a moderate amount, not closed like the Cat Anderson exercise.) |
One of the objectives of the BE exercises are to bring the top lip down. TOL (Tongue on lips) important component of this. For this reason it makes sense to have some gap between the teeth.
The mistake I made when I came first time to the Lip Clamp was to put way too much effort and force into the set up - I should have focused more on the roll in position to get that that annoying mosquito buzz sound.
Stay safe - Steve in Helsinki. _________________ My Number 1 supporter
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3339 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:50 am Post subject: Re: Lip Clamp Question |
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Steve A wrote: | ... The text in the book is "the Lip Clamp, ..., is a simple rolling in of the lips, slightly above the top teeth opening" (pg. 80), which I understood as being both lips above the opening. (But that's a bit of an odd sensation, so I wanted to be sure.) |
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My understanding is that many of the BE exercises are just that - 'exercises', and are not meant to be done during actual playing. Their value is to develop the strength, feeling, and ability to proficiently do the lip adjustments that are useful for actual playing.
Are there sections of BE instruction that specifically describe 'how to play'? Or sections that describe 'what is necessary' when playing? _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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steve0930 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2018 Posts: 195
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jay
RO and RI exercises ask you to practice the extreme lip positions you need to duplicate the sound on the cd.
All the lip slur exercises on the other hand are played on your "normal embouchure" - again the goal is to mimic the cd ¹ (for the importance of lip slurs read page 94) The BE philosophy is that over time the BE exercises will enable your "normal" embouchure to intuitively evolve.
cheers Steve
Note¹ "The closer you imitate the CD the faster your progress will be" page 97. _________________ My Number 1 supporter
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9089 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:20 am Post subject: |
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I'm surprised Jeff hasn't responded. Did you contact him? _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3339 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:28 am Post subject: |
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steve0930 wrote: | ... The BE philosophy is that over time the BE exercises will enable your "normal" embouchure to intuitively evolve. ... |
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Steve, thanks for the explanation.
Have you noticed any particular changes to your embouchure set-up or usage as a consequence of BE training?
Or maybe the 'intuitively evolve' process has resulted in better function without obvious 'mechanical changes'.
note - I do not have experience with BE training or teaching - but I know that several people have gotten good results from it. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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mike ansberry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:09 am Post subject: |
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I think it helps different people find what works for them. For me it has resulted in a more rolled in embouchure in the high range with the corners pushing in toward the center and gradually moving to a less rolled in embouchure as I moved down in range. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1810 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:55 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | I'm surprised Jeff hasn't responded. Did you contact him? |
Not yet - I figured he'd see the thread and comment, but I'll try emailing and see what he says. (And will post the answer here, if that's okay with him.) |
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steve0930 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2018 Posts: 195
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jay
Jay you asked
Quote: | Have you noticed any particular changes to your embouchure set-up or usage as a consequence of BE training? |
Before I started BE - must be 2 years ago - my idea was that the more open the Embouchure the better - within 3 months of starting BE I noticed that my Embouchure was becoming more closed but my sound was more open and a lot easier. When I started BE my objective , I remember, was to be able to play an e in the staff without any effort. Today I played a B above the staff and it was so easy I had to check I had not played an F# in the staff. My goal now is to play C above the staff without any effort.¹
Of course Mike is right and BE enables you to find your unique embouchure. I feel that my embouchure is in a continuous state of progression which is why I avoid any conscious embouchure "set up" when I am playing (as opposed to doing RI RO exercises when Im thinking all about lips) just place mp to lips and when I play I don't think about the degree of roll in & roll out - just let go. I don't have any preconceived ideas about where BE is taking me in terms of embouchure evolvement - which I guess is half the fun! .
Cheers and stay safe Steve in Helsinki
Note¹ If I were to post that on the High Note forum I'd get crucified! _________________ My Number 1 supporter
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3339 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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steve0930 wrote: | ... I feel that my embouchure is in a continuous state of progression which is why I avoid any conscious embouchure "set up" when I am playing ... |
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Hello Steve, and thanks for all the information.
In addition to trying play better myself, part of my interest in 'embouchure training' is learning how various people approach it. I've seen many different methods, processes, schools-of-thought, etc., and it's obvious that they can work if the student is receptive, and the teacher (in person, online, youtube, book, internet, etc.) is competent.
It just seems that many people struggle to find an approach that works for them. My view is that basic trumpet (and all brass) playing isn't all that difficult, and finding good basic instruction should be much easier.
And YES, learning how to play 'really well' is more difficult and requires a lot of work and talent - achieving that relies a foundation of good basic technique.
About your 'embouchure setup' - when you find yourself playing particularly well (such as that B above the staff), do you try to figure-out WHAT has made it possible, and how to replicate the actions?
Or maybe, just repeat the good playing and 'assimilate' the actions into your 'natural embouchure' without excessive analysis?
edit: I realize this thread is in the BE section, so it would be reasonable to limit the discussion to how BE addresses the 'learning process'. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1810 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | I'm surprised Jeff hasn't responded. Did you contact him? |
Following up on this, I did email Jeff, and he sent me a very helpful reply. I don't think he wants me to post his email here, as I think he wants to keep his book (and presumably the instruction of teachers) as the source for this methodology, rather than having the forum take over that role, so I'm going to respect that by not sharing it.
However, if others have questions, he's clearly very invested in making sure people understand his work, so I imagine he'll likely also answer others who have questions. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9089 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I do have this question and I don't think it would be giving away any state secrets to answer it - when doing the lip squeeze, is the lip opening even with the teeth opening or is it raised above, both the upper and lower lips even with the upper teeth? Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
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steve0930 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2018 Posts: 195
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jay
Quote: | About your 'embouchure setup' - when you find yourself playing particularly well (such as that B above the staff), do you try to figure-out WHAT has made it possible, and how to replicate the actions?
Or maybe, just repeat the good playing and 'assimilate' the actions into your 'natural embouchure' without excessive analysis?
edit: I realize this thread is in the BE section, so it would be reasonable to limit the discussion to how BE addresses the 'learning process' |
It's a relevant question. Thanks. The power of BE for me is its intuitive nature - at no point are you asked to "change your embouchure." This sets BE apart from other Trumpet methods. Thanks to BE and also ´The Inner Game of Tennis" (which as I am sure you know focuses on the power of the latent intuitive "Self2" over the analytical "Self 1) I now adopt the same philosophy when I am learning to properly play the trumpet. This means when I am in a purple patch - playing well - or "in the zone" I focus acutely, 95% of my attention, on how the sensation feels, the ease, the sound, - but then a small part of my brain - maybe 5% will be analytical, analyze - but not much ¹ This 5% analysis is what the Inner Game of Tennis calls the "nudge towards learning" that Self 2 needs. Hope that's not too cryptic Jay. I respect the way you are always curious on the forum, open and stimulate discussion - that's what we need in this life!
Cheers Steve
Note¹
Every year my team of 6 play my twin brother's at billiards. It's a very competitive evening. Arto, in my brother's team is playing exceptionally well - not missing anything - in the zone. We're well behind. I side up to Arto "Wow.. what is it with you tonight Arto - you haven't missed - how are you managing it, what's your secret?" Arto stops to think. (opens the door to Self 1) You can guess the rest, with Arto knocked out of the zone my team cruises to a historic win. sorry Arto but he says he might start the Horn when he retires and I will give him free lessons if he does - I owe him that. _________________ My Number 1 supporter
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3339 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:50 am Post subject: |
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steve0930 wrote: | ... This means when I am in a purple patch - playing well - or "in the zone" I focus acutely, 95% of my attention, on how the sensation feels, the ease, the sound, - but then a small part of my brain - maybe 5% will be analytical, analyze - but not much ¹ This 5% analysis is what the Inner Game of Tennis calls the "nudge towards learning" ... |
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Thanks Steve, I think that I understand your process. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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mike ansberry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
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Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2022 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Well, I do have this question and I don't think it would be giving away any state secrets to answer it - when doing the lip squeeze, is the lip opening even with the teeth opening or is it raised above, both the upper and lower lips even with the upper teeth? Thanks. |
In the book it says, "is a simple rolling in of the lip muscles slightly above the top teeth opening" _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt. |
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trumpetteacher1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3407 Location: Garland, Texas
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 7:46 am Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | When doing the mouth clamp, I intentionally make a point to keep the embouchure-to-teeth position from getting an automatic reflex that is different than one which I use when playing. Therefore, my teeth-clamp position is not both lips above the mouth opening but even with it. |
Kehaulani, you are adding your own particular constraint to the BE instructions. Players do this all the time. Sometimes those personal constraints are helpful, and sometimes not. Players typically add these constraints because they seem logical.
Writing a book on trumpet instruction is tricky, and I spent a lot of time phrasing things in a way that would best lead the reader to success. I did this based on feedback from students after teaching thousands of lesson using the BE material (before it was published).
Steve is interpreting the instructions correctly.
Jeff |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9089 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2022 7:59 am Post subject: |
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O.K., thanks, Jeff. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis." Attributed to Chet
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet |
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