Perks of playing without teacher

[stuartissimo]

The standard advice on TH is usually a variant on 'get a teacher', but is it really so essential that going without one is impossible? Obviously, I don't think so (given that I've started a thread about it) but I'm curious to learn your opinions on the matter.

Some of the perks of not having a teacher telling you what to do is that it teaches self-awareness, critical thinking and encourages experimentation. Of course, a major drawback is that it may lead you to waste time or even sabotage your efforts to improve. Yet, your teacher may not be up to the task to actually improve your playing (and without trying other things, how would you know?). Would it be a useful experience for trumpeters in general to deliberately spend at least some period in their life (say, a year) without any guidance at all? Or is trumpet playing an activity that really cannot be done without proper guidance?

Caveat: I'm not talking absolute beginners, but rather advanced players that have a good grasp (but not neccesarily) mastered the basics of playing.
_________________
1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces

[Dayton]

The importance of a teacher for someone beyond the "true beginner" level is tied to that players goals: The bigger their goals the more likely it is that they will need help to achieve them.

Thus, you find very few "top" players -- professionals or amateurs -- who call themselves self-taught. They've either needed help to get there, or the help they received got them there faster. On the other hand, if you survey the ranks of local community bands and orchestras you'll find plenty of third and second trumpet players who are self taught.

Just taking lessons isn't enough. The greatest benefit comes from intelligent and diligent practice and application of what a player has learned from his/her teacher. That is the accelerant for progress.

[stuartissimo]

[JayKosta]

[Rapier232]

I am completely self taught. I bought a trumpet and Tune a Day book 1. It was a few months before I bought a tuner and found that what I thought was an A in the staff was lowest line E. at the same time as teaching myself how to read music. I practiced BUT I didn’t know what or how to practice. I bought an Arban and tried to play from that and gradually improved. I didn’t understand the importance of actually learning scales and their names.

Gradually got good enough to join a brass band, and found I had no real idea of what I was doing. Breaking bars down to play the correct note lengths to time was something I didn’t know that I didn’t know. I got by, by listening to how others played the parts and copying them.

Now some 40 years later, still without lessons, I’m good enough to be paid to play in theatre pit bands and solo cornet in a brass band. Still not great at dividing time signatures and I definitely couldn’t play in a pit band without several rehearsals before the shows. Even better if I can get hold of the music a couple of months ahead.

So my advice to anyone. Get a teacher early on. When/if you get comfortable, carry on alone, but still get lessons now and then, on things you are a bit weak on.

My biggest regret is nobody told me that when I started out.

(Sorry for the ramble and if it’s off topic)
_________________
"Nearly as good as I need to be. Not nearly as good as I want to be".

Smith-Watkins Bb
Will Spencer Bb
Eclipse Flugel
Smith Watkins K2 Cornet
JP152 C Trumpet
Besson Bugle

[tptptp]

Seems like many top-level people in sports have teachers/coaches. Just look at PGA pros on the range. MLB teams have hitting coaches, etc.
I'm just a lousy self-taught amateur, but if I were trying to achieve or maintain world-class status, I'd want expert ears to listen one-on-one and help me adjust from time to time.
_________________
Craig Mitchell

[trickg]

I created a post about this very topic a couple of weeks back, and the general gist of that post is coming away from the idea that I'm a self-taught player.

I used to refer to myself that way - growing up in a small town I had the general music instruction of my K-6 choral teacher, and the general instrumental music instruction of the various band directions I had from grades 5-12, but I had almost no actual private lessons. I tried one summer with a college music major, but abandoned it after a couple weeks because it just wasn't a good fit and I didn't like his approach.

(Later in HS I did a bunch of church organ/trumpet work with the aforementioned K-6 teacher who ended up being a lifelong mentor of mine. He's not a trumpet player, but he's an accomplished musician in his own right.)

Then in the military I had 6 months of weekly private instructions when my teacher decided to actual be there, but again, it wasn't a good mix between student and teacher, although he did teach me some general things about phrasing and musicality.

Once I graduated from the Army/Navy School of Music, I went to my first assignment and it was expected that I hold up my end of things as a player.

Here's the thing though - a "lesson" can come in a lot of different formats. It doesn't have to be a one-on-one private lesson, and looking back, I had a lot of teachers over the years. Just standing around talking shop, or working through a passage in a quintet tune with a group of fine players, if you keep your eye, ears and mind open, "lessons" come to you all the time.

So am I truly self-taught? Not even close. I didn't have much in the way of private instruction, but I've been fortunate enough to get to play alongside of some truly stellar musicians, so as long as you maintain the intent to get better and pay attention, you can learn a lot just by being an active player and getting to play with people who are better than you.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[Nonsense Eliminator]

I basically see my job as a teacher as helping my students learn how to solve their own problems. Even if you have a lesson every week, you are still (hopefully!) spending the vast majority of your trumpet time away from a teacher. That's plenty of time to practice self-awareness and critical thinking.
_________________
Richard Sandals
NBO

[trickg]

[JayKosta]

Learning and progressing are basically covered by 3 things -
SHOULD - knowing what to do
SHALL - being dedicated and committed to achieving the 'shoulds'
SHOW - demonstrate ability, and ongoing maintenance and improvement
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[jhatpro]

I’ve been playing since 1954. I’ve had 18 teachers and have learned something from every one of them.

I’m not playing in the CSO or SF Jazz Collective yet but I’m getting better and having fun.
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[kehaulani]

Call it what you will, another party to see and hear what you are doing is valuable. They can see/hear some things you may not be aware of. Even little things like thinking you're completely depressing a valve when you're not.

Nobody's too good to learn more and from another party. Lest we forget, this is not only pertaining to technique but to musical expression.

Regarding self-evaluation, you should be doing that, anyway. Another party helps you gain further insight.

I was talking to a few players in my band one day about my going to a summer workshop. They were wide-eyed when they found out I attended as a student, not an instructor. I don't know who was more surprised, them or me at their response. You never stop learning.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Seymor B Fudd]

I´ve been playing since 1957. Was handed a horn told to "kind of spit into the mouthpiece, without really doing it". Drudging the C scale during a year and that was it. It turned out that I had (have) a very good ear - my only asset).
But I wanted to play well so I began practicing and in 1964 (?) I found myself in the front row. (Still am).
Always practicing a lot, listened to the great guys, admired Maurice, Bunny, Louis, later on Doc. Bought the books I could find; Arban, and probably the rest. And got quite good; lead chair from 1968 and on.
But ´round 2010 my chops went to the dogs. Overuse. All these years I had failed to understand the importance of breathing the right way.
You just cannot mend the mistakes you don´t know the existence of.

Then this pro came along, 18 lessons in all before he sadly passed on.
His main and single message was: more air, free air, air in the exact proportions etc etc.

What if I had taken lessons already beginning 1960, when I began to be able to afford it???

So anyone wanting to make the road less bumpy - go for a teacher. Otherwise you might end up so entangled into your fully grown idiosyncracies that no teacher might be able to help you.
_________________
Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)

[stuartissimo]

Thanks all for sharing your thoughts. It’s not really an answer to the question I was trying to ask though. I do not question the usefulness of teachers in general. In fact, I’ve recently opted to teach a beginner myself, for no other reason that if I hadn’t, he would have started out without a teacher. Even though I don’t find I qualify as a proper teacher, I hope to help him avoid at least some of the common DIY pitfalls (though I still occasionally encourage him to find a proper trumpet teacher once he’s able to do so).

Personally, I have taken a (temporary) break from having a teacher myself and found it mostly beneficial. It forced me to critically evaluate my abilities and research different approaches to overcome obstacles, and find out how and why things worked (or didn’t). While I learned a lot from my former teachers, I learned nearly as much going at it myself. Before I never thought much beyond what my teachers said and just followed their instructions without properly understanding them.When I do get a teacher again in the future, I think the time I spent alone will help me understand and execute their instructions a lot better than before.
_________________
1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces

[kehaulani]

Stuart, you make a good point, by implication. Taking lessons one can, without even noticing, deferring too much to their teacher, anticipating that the teacher will do all the thinking for them. When you do that, there is no introspection on your part.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[jhatpro]

How to Know You Need a Trumpet Teacher

- The band finishes and you still have a lot of notes left.
- A guy comes to the door and asks if you are giving saxophone lessons.
- Your neighbor’s dog howls as soon as he sees you with your case.
- People stop asking you to play at birthday parties.
- You get funny looks when you say ‘it says FINE but I didn’t think it was very good at all.”
- When you come back from break and the rest of the band is gone.
- When the director asks who's playing the C trumpet and no one raises their hand.
- When your audition ends before you finish playing.
- When your accompanist keeps rolling her eyes.
- You think transposition has something to do with DNA and genomes.
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[Notlem]

Thinking on the original post. Yeah I experimented a ton without a teacher, found range through it, etc. it’s possible that under tutelage I would have never gotten an extra octave. It came with its trade offs that eventually lead to me stop playing. Double embrochure, tone, intonation, etc…

When I came back I almost gave up after a week, but swallowed my pride and sought professional help. I’m in the camp that a good teacher will tell you to experiment and that there is no “one fits all” solution for anything your trying to improve or overcome. I was lucky and found a teacher that is helping me work stuff out I could not ever get past, but at the same time encouraging me to experiment enough to find my own path of putting it all together.

I think that is a tough road from the teaching side and frustrating for students as well. The student takes the lessons with some kind of end goal in the beginning, but wants quick answers that don’t always exist. If the teacher is not flexible enough, the student practices a ton and may hit a wall due to lack of experimentation. At the same time the teacher may have a student he has tried every approach they can think of, to help the student try different things and the student in not in the mindset of experimentation that the teacher is trying to covey through concepts and exercises to help the student find their path.

The other problems are if you just played well for so long that you may not be seeking lessons or maybe your only dishing them out. One would think if everyone learned from everyone, they may get a chance to learn something new and they may pick up a golden nugget of information, if not for themselves, maybe for the next person they talk shop with to or teach whom may benefit from it. Even the best pros learn from each other.

For instance, if I told you that every high note method is correct, would you believe me? They are all correct from their particular point of view. Think about it. Why would a method work for some and not others? Concepts are part of the experimental equations that one must find the balance to in order to solve it on their own. One of those methods may help you find your lightbulb moment.

In the end, yes, absolutely, you need to hit the woodshed and experiment on your own, but in a ideal world, input and guidance should lead you down that path quicker.

-marc

[spitvalve]

[jhatpro]

So true!
_________________
Jim Hatfield

"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus

2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle

[stuartissimo]