Bach Strad - 32 Years Older - WHAT a Difference!

[bgosvig]

Hi All: I invite thoughts and comments on this recent experience...

I recently sold a 2009 Bach Stradivarius 37. It simply wasn't working for me. It had hints of greatness, but it just felt thick and heavy, and required too much effort to get moving. The horn didn't feel nimble and resonant. I also found the valves sluggish, no matter how many times I cleaned and oiled. All in all, it was just too much work. So, I finally sold it and bought an Olds Recording (now getting a valve overhaul from Oberloh's in Seattle).

I absolutely LOVE the warm, rich sound of the Recording, and will keep that horn forever. But...the pure, brilliant legit sound that the Strad hinted at (when it finally did get moving), was also something I desired for classical pieces.

So, I hunted about and finally, yesterday, purchased another Strad 37 - this time a 1977 model. I almost hit the floor when I played this horn. It's everything I sought when I bought my first Strad....clean, pure and resonant with brilliant tone and outstanding projection. The notes are fat and round. This horn is SO much more sonorous. And - the valves are wonderful - nimble, precise and quick.

How is it possible that this is the same brand and model? Yes, the first Strad showed occasional promise this potential, but it was just slow and resistant by comparison. My new (old) one is astoundingly better - SO much more of what I remember coming from my trumpet teacher years ago.

I suppose it's possible that the 2009 horn was from the tail end of the strike and still suffered from spotty craftsmanship. Or, perhaps later models will just never match the sonic beauty of Bach's glory days?

I haven't tried a new Strad, so I don't know how they measure up. However, just based upon my little sample of 2009 and 1977, it seems that older may indeed be better. At least it was in this case.

What are others' thoughts and experiences? Is what I encountered normal, or could it just have been a case of a bad day at the factory for my 2009 Strad?

[Theshinytrumpet]

This is not an uncommon occurrence. I recently had a similar experience. I had a relatively new Bach, but it wasn't everything I was looking for (primarily just the fact that it was a 43 and not a 37). I sold it because I also have a super nice Olds recording that just made that particular horn obsolete. I was recently the worlds luckiest person and found a MINT condition early Elkhart 37 at an estate sale (for a VERY good price). It's easily 10x better than the Bach that I sold.

Bach used to have serious QC and consistency issues. That has been discussed on this forum for years, so I will refrain from going that direction.
_________________
Logan Wooden
Pickett Brass/Blackburn Trumpets
Robinson's Remedies
Soulo Mutes
www.rockfordtrumpetstudio.com

[JayKosta]

[cheiden]

I'm a big Bach fan but in my experience, you need to play a bunch until you find one that works for you.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[falado]

Hi, also with Strads, I found it worth the expense to send them to James Becker at Osmun Music for blueprinting. Every horn I sent Jim has come back a much better player. I just got my Benge 6X back, needed a PVA, etc., and it's a player, looks great too. Now has my 74 Strad, it's been blueprinted, but I'm now getting a Charlie Melk MV 525 leadpipe and bronze tuning slide installed. I can't wait to get it back.

Jim's evaluation and blueprinting may be all your first Strad needed, but I wouldn't hesitate to send the 77.
_________________
FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet

[bgosvig]

[bgosvig]

[bgosvig]

[Nathan.Sobieralski]

My regular Bb is a Bach 37 from 1979 or so. Its a great horn for sure but needs some work, new lead pipe at least. I'll probably end up spending the money to rebuild it.
_________________
Dr. Nathan Sobieralski
www.s-mute.com
Principal Trumpet, Sequoia Symphony
Department of Music (Trumpet)
California State University, Fresno

[kramergfy]

Whenever I asked to have a blow on a section mate’s 37 back in school, they always felt dull, stuffy, and tight. These were all 90s/2000s era silver plated stock 37s; the brown cases. Everyone had them, and for me they never clicked. I preferred my Olds Ambassador!

Just a few years ago by chance, I picked up an old lacquered 37 from 1967, a true Early Elkhart. It was a totally different experience; like putting on an old pair of shoes that fit perfectly. Familiar, responsive, and exactly the sound I had in my head. It has become my main horn, and I sent it to Jim at Osmuns to blue print it. Absolutely the most balanced horn I’ve ever played.
_________________
"I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy

Thread killer.

[OldSchoolEuph]

You guys need to try some horns from after they recovered from a generation of employees being treated as if they were working in a pick-up truck plant. (after the UAW got booted)
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[falado]

Hi bgosvig, there is a reason I'm doing this with my Bach. It's more about the sound and I'm looking for more core to my sound. I've been playing mostly commercial gigs the last 20+, some shows and an occasional church, concert band, or brass gig. In the USN I played lead in the Showband, some big bands, etc.

I'm retired from the Navy and retiring from teaching next month. I auditioned for a grad program and though I play a Yamaha Hagstrom on Bb and a Bach Symphonic 1 1/2 C on C trumpet, I realize that I will have to work on my sound. The horns I'm using are more than adequate, Stomvi VR, Benge 6X, and the Bach 37, but I have a naturally bright sound, probably due to teeth and mouth cavity. It's not about another level, well maybe, but using the right tool for the job. What will give me the right sound for orchestra and quintet, etc. on the legit side.

Since I fell into the CM MV 525 at a reasonable price, I figure the transformation of the Bach can't hurt and if it don't work for me, it should sell easy. In another thread I am contemplating keeping the Bach or getting a Thane or Bach 190. I will update that thread after I get my 37 back.

Dave
_________________
FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet

[Notlem]

I would look at the new ones as well, I did not care for the 180s I tried, but the 190s sold me. Be interesting to see how a new one stacks against the old one you tested.

You can hear the differences in their artist programs, select and listen to different 180's, then choose 190's.

https://select.conn-selmer.com

I did get one though this program, it played nothing like the 190 they had in the store, glad I did it. Compression is insane, slides pop back to starting position when I flick them.

Bach, as one of the more refined posters here pointed out, are still considered boutique, so each individual one of the same model has its own characteristics.

So try some different ones to see if it speaks to you before they figure out how to make them all have the same generic sound and you can't find your Ferrari of the bunch anymore.
_________________
-marc melton
48 years young
Comeback player since November 2021!
Georgetown, TX
2022 Bach 190s37 artist select
1976 Schilke X3lb
Jupiter 846l black lacquer

[falado]

Hi, I got a message from a fellow THer about Bach trumpets. Here's my take and I hope he doesn't mind my sharing.

My first pro horn was a Stad. back in 1973. My trumpet prof picked it out with me. Yes, it's funny how inconsistent they sometimes were when trying a half dozen horns. I guess that's mass production for you. That horn, to me got stuffy when playing above high C. I didn't care for playing shows with it and I later switched to a Benge 6X when playing shows big band lead. It was had a much more open and consistent blow.

I'm not saying I'm loyal to Bach, but for certain jobs that's the sound I'm looking for. I have played my share of good and bad Bachs. My C is a Bach 239 25A and was made a much better horn after blueprinting. I had a Schilke C, great horn, but not quite the same sound or blow.

The problem I see with Bach was quality control. Things like solder blobs in the horns, bell bow needing rounding, tension at some of the connecting areas, slides not perfectly aligned. Jim at Osmun corrects these areas in any trumpet and you would be amazed at how these corrections can effect the playability of any horn.

In the military bands I performed with I played what ever was issued. Most of the trumpets were Bach 37. I did at one time own a 1965 72 MLV. It was a great horn and I should have kept that one.

I recently tried a 190 Artisan and yes, sound, quality and playability were all there. However the price kept me from buying it. Would have to play an awful lot of gigs to pay that one off.

I hope this helps, Dave
_________________
FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet

[falado]

Hi again, I apologies to the OP, I'm not trying to take over this thread, just throwing out some opinion and personal experience.

Dave
_________________
FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet

[bgosvig]

[falado]

Hi again bgosvig, thanks for the kind words. Truthfully, I’ve been teaching 8 classes a day of general music and now have no planning periods and don’t get to practice every morning like I did when I taught band. I also sat and played with the students while teaching band. I’ve spent too much time off the horn this year. Before I had 1 1/2 - 3 hours a day with the horn in my face.

I don’t think it has to do with how well you play at this point. Looks like you have two great horns working for you now and that’s half the battle. A horn that doesn’t play well or efficient makes playing harder and maybe not a joy. So, with your 77 you have a win win situation. Play it often, rest as much as you play, take lessons..

Some of the more fun military groups I played with were the faculty lab and concert bands at the Armed Forces School of Music and the US Navy Showband. I got to play and study with some world class musicians and it was fun. My horns have been blueprinted and play efficiently and therefore are fun to play. Keep playing join community bands, get exposure to better players and ask questions. I did this constantly when I was younger and still do it now. You should see my collection of method and Etude books (my favorite is Charlier). I’m 68 and about to enter a graduate program for trumpet performance. This is something I’ve always wanted to do. It will be fun and most important, I’ll learn and get better. My trumpet is a tool, I need the best playing instrument I can afford.

Dave
_________________
FA LA DO (Ab: V/ii) MUCS, USN (Ret.)
Stomvi VR (Reeves) with VR II Bell
Bach 239 25A C, Blueprinted
Bach 37, Early Elkhart, Blueprinted
Kanstul Flugel
Getzen 4 valve Pic.
Yamaha D/Eb
Besson Cornet

[yourbrass]